Tiffany (00:01)
Hello, Kat. How are you?

Kat (00:03)
Hello Tiffany.

Doing all right. A little warm over here. How about you? Yeah. Yeah, we're recording this the week after the huge heat wave in Europe that killed a thousand people in France. And we're about to have one in the US and

Tiffany (00:09)
Will be tomorrow.

Kat (00:24)
Yeah.

Tiffany (00:25)
Yeah. It's gonna be I think Joe said it's gonna be like a hundred and something. A hundred plus on fourth of July here, so

Kat (00:33)
Yeah. East

Coast isn't up for that. I mean that's that's Texan. I mean that's but

Tiffany (00:37)
Yeah, it is.

So welcome to the new world.

Kat (00:43)
Yeah.

Tiffany (00:44)
Or not. We can fix it. That's what we're here for. That's what we're here for. Let's talk about Perennial vegetables, we'll fix it.

Kat (00:46)
Yeah, that's what we're here for. Let's talk about I mean, yeah. We can hope. Perennial vegetables

are gonna fix everything.

Tiffany (00:56)
Okay. So on that note, what if I told you there are vegetables you plant exactly once and they show they just show up again the next year and you harvest them year after year after year. No starting seeds, no replanting, no fussing.

Kat (01:14)
yeah, I would say I know about this because I've done research in that vein because of our topics this season, but I think it's not something I know very much about. yeah. So

Tiffany (01:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (01:29)
I 'cause I would think of like perennial fruit, perennial like berries, you know, fruit trees, but vegetables, that's news to me.

Tiffany (01:38)
Yeah, it's interesting. unfortunately the catch is that some of them taste terrible. They may take over your entire yard or they might produce roughly enough food to garnish a single taco.

Kat (01:45)
Ha ha

yes, okay. Sounds about right.

Tiffany (01:57)
So, there is a catch, but today I'm sharing which ones are actually worth it and which ones you can safely ignore. So you don't have to spend years learning the hard way. Welcome to Greening Up My Act.

Kat (02:05)
All right.

Tiffany (02:29)
Is that just me or did that sound like weird circus music?

Kat (02:33)
I think it might be you. It sounded like our theme song to me. I think y

Tiffany (02:35)
Okay. It was

it must be my connection 'cause it was like

Kat (02:42)
Sounded fine on this end. I I hope I hope our recording agent got the non circus version.

Tiffany (02:44)
Okay, great.

It was like a record s slowly slowing down.

Kat (02:51)
no.

Tiffany (02:52)
So yeah, any hoosies. Yeah, that's what we're chatting about today is Yeah, sort of this like glorious idea.

Kat (02:59)
Yeah, perennial vegetables.

I I guess okay, maybe this is sub off topic, but the difference between perennial and annual is something do you know what the official difference is between them?

Tiffany (03:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean so annual is something that only lives for one year. So or like one season. And then it dies and does not ever come back.

Kat (03:24)
Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I thought an annual came back every year, but that's there's my issue.

Tiffany (03:32)
I know I

always thought that too. It does seem like it should because it's called annual. But that just means Yeah, exactly. Yeah. and then there's two different kinds of perennials. There's like fake perennials that I'll talk about in a little bit, but yeah. I mean, they still are pretty cool. so yeah, welcome to our show. If you're new here.

Kat (03:37)
Right. But it means you have to plant it every year. Every on the okay. Okay.

Ooh, ooh, the plot.

Yeah, we hope. Yeah. Yeah. we are two normal girls who some of us are still in marketing, some of us have former careers in marketing. with we love research and we have this drive inside of ourselves to do better by the earth. And so we got together and were like, What are some things 'cause

Tiffany (04:00)
And you're wondering who the hell we are, we can tell you.

No.

Kat (04:27)
you know, a lot of the time it feels like when it comes to climate change or, you know, carbon fuel usage and things like we don't have a lot of control over that. But as everyday people, like what actually makes sense and what can we actually do? And also, can we distill this into forty five minutes so that you don't have to go down the same research rabbit holes that we do?

Tiffany (04:53)
Yes. Yeah, we try to do the research so you don't have to. yeah, I mean we've learned a lot over the years. It's like kinda Yeah. It's kinda crazy. 'Cause it's been over a hundred episodes, so we've gotten we've looked into a hundred plus topics, products and other things. So yeah, it's it's pretty cool.

Kat (04:57)
Yeah.

yeah, for sure. Changed my life. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (05:17)
And then I am also starting a sustainable landscape design business. So I know a little bit about plants, but I am still learning and also I've never, ever planted perennial vegetables. Ever. Which it's mostly because I don't plant a lot of vegetables, but I did am starting this year because if you listen to our was that our last episode?

Kat (05:32)
I okay. I was gonna say.

I I think so, yeah. Where I was like, The end is near, plant your own veget Which you know, and then and then there was a peace accord of some kind and then a violation of the peace accord, so I say it still stands Plant your own vegetables if you can.

Tiffany (05:47)
Yeah, on Yes.

No, I know. It's not yeah. Pff even whatever happens with Iran, it's it's still fits. It's still there's still a f coming food crisis that nobody ta is talking about, nobody knows about. That's in the next fifteen, twenty years, like it's gonna happen.

Kat (06:10)
Yeah.

Tiffany (06:21)
I do wanna try some of these perennial vegetables and we'll get into what and whatnot. Yeah.

Kat (06:23)
Okay. It's worth it. Okay. That's

what I'm interested in too, 'cause we're I have a boyfriend Gardner who I I think maybe maybe I you know, he's kinda quit listening to our podcast, unfortunately, 'cause it's like he knows already, but he doesn't know. He doesn't know. Right?

Tiffany (06:31)
Mm.

Yeah,

that's fair. I guess Sean.

Kat (06:47)
He's gonna listen to this in five years and be the hell?

Tiffany (06:52)
Fine. No, it's fine. so yeah, a little bit about my sources I had.

Kat (06:54)
Yeah.

Tiffany (06:59)
Couple,

So I used this, the main one that I used was the sort of like an opinion piece. It was a

sub stack actually from this woman named Amy Manning about all of her experience with perennial vegetables. It's called perennial vegetables mostly duds. Foreshadowing. Yes. another one was grow veg.com. They had just about yeah, just more about perennial vegetables. Ruralsprout dot com also used them. University of California had a study

Kat (07:09)
okay.

Just to know, yeah, she she didn't bury the lead there in the title. Okay.

Tiffany (07:37)
about perennial vegetables, interestingly enough. Nature dot com had a scientific report there was a PLOS PLOS one Yes. I never know how to s

Kat (07:46)
Yeah, that's the science yeah. I'm always like this should have been PLUSON,

but I think it's PLOS one. I forget to Yeah, I don't know if it's an acronym or if it yeah. It's PLOS One. Yeah.

Tiffany (07:52)
It yeah. I never know how to say it. It's gotta be, yeah.

but they have a study that I used and then I use Martha Stewart's blog.

Kat (08:03)
As I mean, she is a great resource for these things. is PLOS One the public library of science? Would that? I don't know. That would be the acronym I would use, but okay.

Tiffany (08:05)
Yeah, totally. that would make sense.

Yeah, that would make sense. okay. What are we talking about today? Perennial vegetables. In other words, vegetables that come back every year for at least three years. So sometimes it's not forever, but

Kat (08:30)
Right.

Tiffany (08:32)
It's at least three years.

Kat (08:33)
I'm I'm thinking like mint.

Tiffany (08:38)
That's one of the herbs, yeah. No, I know, it's aggressive as hell. It'll take over. Don't plant mint with your other in your g actual garden. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. so the difference like I said, there are two two types of perennials. One is a true perennial, one is a faux perennial. The true ones do actually grow back every year, just kinda on their own.

Kat (08:38)
As an Yeah, okay. 'Cause it but it just never dies, basically.

Yeah, you you put it in a pot. That is container gardening one one. Yeah.

Tiffany (09:06)
The fake

Kat (09:06)
Okay.

Tiffany (09:07)
fake ones, the ones that are f giving you the fake out, they actually self seed and then the seeds grow the next year. As long as they're allowed to seed. So you have to let them seed, in other words. So like a bunch of flowers do this that people think of as perennials that aren't really like black eyed Susans. They're yeah, they reseed, but they do it so effectively that it they're basically perennial. So

Kat (09:17)
okay. Okay, yes.

They just receive themselves. Yeah.

Tiffany (09:37)
Yeah, it's kinda interesting. okay, so that's a perennial vegetable. A lot of fruits do this and for some reason vegetables are much harder to find.

Kat (09:47)
Yeah. I'm wondering like why?

Tiffany (09:51)
I don't know.

I'm wondering if it's because we've cultivated vegetables to hellenback.

Kat (09:59)
Yeah. Well yeah, I'm I'm I'm wondering about that too, 'cause it's I think we've talked about this. I you know, I was listening to one of the podcasts I fell asleep to when they were talking about our ancestors in the medieval era would have gardened these weird root vegetables that we never see now because they're too hard to farm on a giant scale. And I I think about that all the time 'cause they're they're oddly shaped, so they're impossible to pick or, you know, to sort.

Tiffany (10:21)
Yeah.

Kat (10:28)
You know, those those these things that our ancestors like lived off of no longer exist in our food and you can't like nobody's growing them. So you can't like buy them at a specialty grocery store or anything. They're just not done anymore. And it was something that, you know, we wouldn't recognize what our ancestors ate that they cultivated themselves because it doesn't exist anymore. So

Tiffany (10:32)
Interesting.

That's

really interesting. And I wonder if it tasted like if it would taste to us like garbage or if it would be tasty. I don't know.

Kat (10:57)
I think

I think they're pretty tasty. Like th some of the root vegetables they're talking about are basically like parsnips. It's just parsnips and carrots are more uniform, you know. So they're easier to pluck and you know. I like them in certain they have to be in certain conditions, like a lot of butter, you know.

Tiffany (11:05)
Okay.

I personally hate parsnips, but that's okay.

Okay. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I might eat it then. Yeah. no, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, 'cause fruit is like raspberries come back, like crazy, strawberries, apples, yeah, fruit trees. fa yeah. I don't know many fruits. Blueberries. Like I don't know many fruits that don't. Bananas do.

Kat (11:24)
Yep. Apples. Yeah. Yeah. Figs, you know, pomegranates.

I can't think of any.

Tiffany (11:41)
I know.

Kat (11:43)
'Cause they're all, you know, trees, so generally or bushes.

Tiffany (11:44)
Pineapple?

Think that just keeps growing. I mean it's tropical, so it doesn't really die back. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's really interesting. but the fact of the matter is there are fewer vegetables that will come back and that you don't have to replant every year. So there are three eco friendly sort of eco-friendly claims but but like yeah, I guess they're like basically like claims

Kat (11:49)
I think so too.

Yeah, yeah.

Tiffany (12:17)
greener claims that like greener ideas around using perennial vegetables versus annual vegetables which are like tomatoes, beans, peas, carrots, potato yeah, everything.

Kat (12:19)
Mm-hmm.

Everything you you corn, yeah. Everything

we generally plant in veg in terms of vegetables, yeah.

Tiffany (12:37)
Yeah. so the first one is they you can plant them once and harvest them for years. So that's just like less consumption in general, 'cause you just keep producing out of that same plant. Second one is that it supports many pollinators, or these plants support many pollinators. The third one is that these plants can become a carbon sink, which is really interesting.

Kat (13:06)
I guess that makes sense. Yeah, because they I mean for a lot of reasons. You know, they keep growing.

That's yeah, okay. Okay. I'm processing.

Tiffany (13:17)
Yeah, and we'll talk about

it a little bit. Yeah, no, it is really interesting. Because I was kinda I don't know, I was sort of I didn't like not believe this stuff, but I was just a little bit skeptical of it for some reason. we'll Well that's true. That is true. But we'll get into why I shouldn't be, maybe. so the first claim, plant them once and harvest for years. This is I didn't look into this too much

Kat (13:30)
Well, yeah. 'Cause though that's your job here on the podcast. Yeah.

Tiffany (13:45)
But it is true it can be true as long as these things don't die. Right. And from what I understand from what I was reading, some of them are really tricky to keep alive. I haven't tried it myself, but I did read quite a bit about other people trying it and they're just like, My God, did I have trouble?

Kat (13:54)
Keeping things alive. Mm-hmm.

I I that may be why we don't continue to plant perennial vegetables, you know, if they're difficult.

Tiffany (14:14)
Yeah.

I think so. And some of them take up to like three years maybe to actually start producing. So that's another thing. but if you can get them established and they are the type of plants that's gonna last a long time, and you keep them alive, then yes, you can harvest them over and over and over. So that's pretty cool. It's a really cool idea. And we're gonna get into which ones will do that, but

Kat (14:20)
To like really fruit. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Tiffany (14:44)
the second claim is that they support mini pollinators. And I was kind of like, well a lot of like annual plants support pollinators as well.

Kat (14:53)
Right.

and we've talked about like native pollinators want native pollen, you know, so are these perennial vegetables in that genre or not, you know?

Tiffany (15:01)
Mm.

Right.

Well it depends on what it is, but I found out that actually so some people eat nettles. Do you know what nettles are? Okay. Yeah. They're very spiky and they can really hurt like hell, but there are ways to remove the nettles. do you have you ever like run into nettles in your life? No. Okay.

Kat (15:13)
yeah, yeah. They're kinda like thistles. I mean they're mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

No, I don't think

they are native to anywhere that I've lived.

Tiffany (15:32)
Right. Yeah, I have, and it's very painful. But some people eat them and they claim lots of medicinal properties and they're supposed to be like insanely good for you. That's the other thing about perennial plants is like a lot of them, like I said, don't taste great, but they're like super foods. So it's it's hard. but nettles are actually a crucial butterfly host plant and

Kat (15:36)
Yeah.

Of course.

Yeah.

yes, okay.

Tiffany (15:59)
There are certain species of butterflies that only eat like nettles. They only like rely on nettles. Yeah. So that's interesting. And rhubarb also has I looked it up and was like, is rhubarb a fruit or a vegetable? It's technically a vegetable. Even though it's always used in fruity pies.

Kat (16:05)
Okay. Only pollinate nils. Yeah. Okay.

Right.

I th I this

might be something we should point out. Like there is no real technical anything that grows out of the earth is a vegetable. We use it in layman's terms to mean savory gre savory grown things that we eat. But vegetable yeah. Fruit is actually a technical term. Fruit means anything that bears its own seeds, kinda like mammals that have mammary glands and feed their young. Like

Tiffany (16:43)
that's interesting.

Kat (16:55)
But vegetable is not a scientific term for a specific type of plant. Yeah. Yeah. So anything that grows out of the ground could be a vegetable. We just don't say that in everyday terminology. We think of savory, yeah. Cause yeah, technically fruits are, you know, we use fruit to mean anything that's sweet.

Tiffany (17:02)
That's interesting. I didn't even know that.

Okay, s yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat (17:23)
That grows out of the earth. But it's really anything that has its own seeds. Yeah.

Tiffany (17:24)
Yeah.

that's so interesting. I'm

trying to think, like cucumber. Okay. That's awesome. Whoa, that's wild.

Kat (17:31)
Fruit.

Banana, technically a berry. Yep.

So yeah. And I don't know the distinction between a berry and another kind of fruit. But yeah. Anything that anything that y has the seeds but nuts are n nuts are not fruits. I don't know what the distinction is there either. But yeah, basically but they're all vegetables. It's not a scientific term. Yeah. They don't they don't use it in science to be like, Well, this is a vegetable and this is a fruit. So

Tiffany (17:45)
Yeah.

Hm. Okay. Whoa. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which

is so funny 'cause it was like a whole ordeal when we switch the tomato from a vegetable to a fruit. Well, yeah, no, it's kind of like I learned that like a murder of crows is not anything science based. It's actually I think by an author or somebody like somebody who's not a scientist came up with all of these terminologies for groups of animals and yeah, scientists are like, We don't actually use that.

Kat (18:07)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Actual scientists would care about the genus and the species, you know, not it's a fruit or it's a vegetable or it's a you know. Yeah, the taxonomy of animals is not like they don't really care what a group of sheep is called either, you know, like

Tiffany (18:32)
Right.

Right.

Yeah, no, I think it yeah, it's so interesting. And that's why they're so flor flowery, like a murder of crows or a Yeah, I think I I don't know if this is true, but in a book of Charlie's it said that the a group of hummingbirds is called a charm.

Kat (18:46)
But it's just us English majors who

Yeah. A congress of owls.

I that sounds about right. I thought it was something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What was it a glimmer of

Tiffany (19:06)
I know, I'm like, that's adorable. But yes, that's definitely like a fiction writer who came up with these. Yeah. It's pretty awesome.

Kat (19:16)
I don't remember. Somebody did for horror horror creatures. It's like a a vexation of zombies and you know, I love that stuff.

Tiffany (19:24)
I was gonna say a glimmer

would be good for like lightning bugs or something.

Kat (19:27)
Yeah, but there's all kinds of those are fun ones. But they're not official. Yeah, they're not science, you know. It's again somebody in the nineteenth century sat around and said, What are we gonna call a group of crows? Well we call them a murder.

Tiffany (19:32)
Yeah, yeah.

Yes. 'Cause that's what I think of. Yes, yes. now we know about fruits and vegetables. Everything's a vegetable, but

Kat (19:47)
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (19:50)
Like I was saying, many annual edible plants are the same. So there are like squash bees that come out specifically for squash and squash is like different types of squash, but squash is annual. there are specialist bees on blueberries, on cranberries, the flowers of pumpkins, winter squash, melons, gourds, like all of these things have bees that rely solely on them. Yeah. So I'm not saying

Kat (20:00)
Mm-hmm.

Very specialized insect.

Tiffany (20:18)
that they're they're certainly not wrong when they say that they're good for pollinators. Cause they are. And if nobody's planting rhubarb or what was the other one? nettles. That's a problem. So I guess even if we're not going to eat them, then Yeah. But I don't know, I'd I've never tasted it, so I'd be curious to try it. Mm-hmm.

Kat (20:28)
Nettles, nettles. Right.

They might be worth yeah, having.

Nettles? Yeah.

I've never tried nettles. I definitely have rhubarb quite a bit.

Tiffany (20:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (20:47)
As we all have, it's been stuffed in with strawberries.

Tiffany (20:49)
Yes, which I love. That's so good together. Such a good combo.

Kat (20:52)
I love I

d I do love a rhubarb.

One summer when I was living in France when I was a teenager, my host family had homemade rhubarb compote, which is just like kind of like a jelly. Yeah, and it I was just like I would eat it by the spoonful, you know. It was delicious. I like rhubarb I like tart things though, so

Tiffany (21:03)
Yum.

Yeah,

same. Me too. I can't be too sweet. but like I said, you have to let it bolt or flower and let it go to seed to be that useful for pollinators. So or birds, I don't

Kat (21:24)
Okay. Yeah. And then it's not

sweet usually once you let something go to seed. Yeah. Right for eating. Yeah.

Tiffany (21:30)
No, that usually ruins it as far as the flavor. Yeah.

So that's the other thing. And and some of these might flower as they as they grow, like the like in it's an annual, but like squash will flower and then the flower will turn into the fruit. So the the vegetable, I mean the

Kat (21:51)
The fruit. Mm-hmm. What

what technical term. Yeah. The murder of crows, yeah.

Tiffany (21:55)
Ugh, yeah, whatever it is.

It turns into the murder. Yeah. Okay, and so the last claim is that it will become a carbon sink. And this one was really interesting because I was like, I don't know. Like maybe, I don't know. But it does make a lot of sense. So perennial vegetables have a much deeper root system than annuals. Like much deeper.

Kat (22:20)
Okay.

I can see that.

Tiffany (22:22)
An asparagus

root? Can you do you want to guess how deep an asparagus root can go?

Kat (22:27)
Inch and a half. no, is it a perennial? A foot. A foot then.

Tiffany (22:30)
Yeah, sorry. Asparagus is. Yes, yes, yes.

Ten to fifteen feet. I know. I know. Isn't that crazy? And that's just hanging out, you know. Yeah. And so the idea is that these deep root systems sink carbon from the air into the ground much better than shallow root systems, which I believe. Think about trees, like you said. And

Kat (22:36)
That's a tree. That's a tree.

Just in your yard.

Makes perfect sense. Yes. Yeah.

Tiffany (23:02)
You also don't need to till the ground every year. So that keeps that carbon in there. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually found two studies that showed that this is true. So one said that perennial vegetables have potential to increase carbon sequestration in vegetable production and address nutrient deficiencies, which is another thing, affecting over two billion people.

Kat (23:06)
Keeps the carbon in there. Your yes. Okay.

Tiffany (23:26)
They in that study, they're mostly talking about tree vegetables like olives or the spinach tree, which I think is like a specific type of tree. yeah, so it's I think it's like a tropical, it's either in an arid region or a tropical environment. it doesn't help me much, but it is interesting that like though okay, so those perennial vegetables, because it's there aren't that many perennial vegetable studies out there, right? But it's interesting that.

Kat (23:34)
Okay. Never heard of a spinach tree.

Okay.

Right.

I guess. Yeah.

Tiffany (23:53)
that one that that study did find that those perennial vegetables can probably help with like carbon sequestration, which is pretty cool.

Kat (24:03)
Okay. I mean,

olive tree makes perfect sense. It's a tree. Again, a fruit. Olive technically a fruit, but yeah. Huh. Okay. I mean I'm I'm starting to think I probably know what the perennial vegetables are. I'm guessing, you know, asparagus, broccoli, some of the pst broccoli isn't? Okay.

Tiffany (24:08)
Right.

Not broccoli actually. No.

Broccoli is a bitch. I planted some broccoli and I don't even know why I bothered. It was such a waste of time.

Kat (24:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, we tried here too. It's a cold weather vegetable, first of all.

Tiffany (24:34)
Yeah, I think I first off did it the wrong although I followed the package directions, but

Kat (24:38)
Yeah.

Tiffany (24:39)
And now let's take a break. And then we'll talk about is this something a normal person could do or afford? And we'll also get into what the vegetables are that are perennial.

Kat (24:50)
I'm stoked.

Tiffany (25:05)
It did it again. Yeah. That's so weird. I don't know what is going on. I'm sure it'll sound fine in the end, but it was like kinda creepy. Maybe I have the Victorian child ghost in my house.

Kat (25:07)
Did it? It sounded fine to me.

Yeah.

Harry Vetch has

moved in with you, yes.

Tiffany (25:23)
Harry, get out of here. okay. So is this something a normal person could do? I would say more than a Ford do is the problem with perennial vegetables. As far as Amy Manning is concerned, her experience has shown that the harvest from these is often quite small and it's only available for a short period of the year, or the flavor of the texture sucks.

Kat (25:24)
Harry that.

Tiffany (25:51)
And she's in Oregon and they have I would think a longer growing season than us.

Kat (25:58)
In Oregon?

Tiffany (25:59)
Yeah, right?

Kat (26:01)
With they have less sun, I would think. I mean, so Texas the growing season in Texas is from like March to November because it doesn't get cold here. Yeah. And hot. Yeah. The wet but I think it I think the sun it just depends on the plants, right? So the sunlight goes away, you know, they have longer days in the summer than those of us there's our G bargain.

Tiffany (26:04)
Yeah.

That's true, it's just so dry, but I was just thinking 'cause it's so wet.

But yeah, you're right.

Yeah.

Kat (26:30)
Those

of us down south here, whatever, but they they have less sun in the other months. So

Tiffany (26:36)
Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I don't know what yeah, just 'cause it doesn't get as like cold, but anyway, she's in Oregon. Mm hmm Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. So the ones that she says are worth it artichokes.

Kat (26:44)
Yeah, it doesn't have a sharp of a seasonal change. It's just the the light, I would think. But yeah.

Okay, I was gonna say I think artist jokes are. Okay.

Tiffany (27:00)
Okay,

I wasn't sure.

Kat (27:02)
Well, they're kinda like a thistle. I think they were cultivated from thistles or you know Yeah.

Tiffany (27:06)
True. yeah, that's interesting. I

wasn't sure because they are such a big plant. Like they're the plants themselves, I don't know if you've seen but they're huge. And then it's like a little tiny artichoke. but if you have space, then yes, she says that these are worth it, which is cool 'cause like I love artichokes.

Kat (27:12)
Yeah.

They're enormous. Yeah. So yeah.

Okay.

I also love artichokes. They are a lot of work to eat, you know? It does. You like have to well yeah. I love artichokes.

Tiffany (27:30)
Yeah, they are. Which kind of makes it more enjoyable 'cause you're like, I've done the thing. Yeah,

you can grow them in the in USD USDA hardiness zones from seven to eleven.

Kat (27:45)
Okay, so I could grow in here. Ooh, I'm gonna plant an artichoke tree in my front yard and Sean's gonna be like, What the hell is this? And I'll be like, Yeah, artichoke tree. Bush like like an agave plant kind of thing. Yeah.

Tiffany (27:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yes. I think it's less of a tree, but it's like bushy yeah. Yeah, I think so.

asparagus is worth it. But that takes two to three years to actually f produce any sort of edible plant. I think maybe it has its stalks the first year or two, but they're not yeah. Either you can't eat them or they're they don't taste good, I'm not sure.

Kat (28:03)
Okay, that makes sense. Okay.

But they're not delicious.

They're like

woody, I'm gonna guess.

Tiffany (28:21)
Yeah, I think so. she also says chives are worth it. They come back. Which I would consider that an herb, but

Kat (28:29)
Still a vegetable.

Tiffany (28:31)
There you go. There's one called corn there's a couple I've never heard of. One called corn salad. Have you heard of this? No. Or lamb's lettuce. It's also known as lamb's lettuce.

Kat (28:36)
Okay. No.

I think

No. I don't I haven't. I'm thinking lamb's ears, which are decorative. No.

Tiffany (28:48)
I know, same.

Yeah, it's a small herbaceous plant that you can eat. Yeah, she says it's worth it. Apparently it tastes delicious. That might be one of some of the like little green ones come in the winter when there's not much else. So it's kind of nice, even though they're small to have like fresh. Something fresh. Garlic, she says is worth it. 'Cause that's super easy to grow. I just went to Indiana and I saw my aunt's garlic and it's like kinda taken over a little bit actually.

Kat (28:53)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, yes.

Yeah.

Tiffany (29:18)
So you kinda

have to like be careful, I guess. But it's really easy to pull, so it's not really like that big of a deal. She's like, I have so many of but I can just pull up and then dry them and then use them. Yeah, and she gave me a couple. So I'm hoping to be able to like replant them, but we'll see if it works. And then I'll have a whole yard of garlic probably. Welcome to my garlic home. Plant them by the front front door.

Kat (29:24)
Right. Yeah.

They need Yeah.

nice. Okay. Yeah. You're just like, hey, yeah, garlic and artichokes. No vampires here.

Yeah.

Tiffany (29:49)
another one i that I've never heard of is Good King Henry.

Kat (29:53)
Okay, no.

Tiffany (29:55)
Which I'm like Somebody made that up. Yeah, like when I'm thinking, like, was this

Kat (29:56)
Somebody made that up. What?

When have we had

a good King Henry? Let's be honest. The most famous one is Henry the Eighth, and I don't think anybody got named Henry after that. Specifically for that reason. Yeah.

Tiffany (30:07)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

It's like somebody trying to suck up to the king. They're like, I named this Right. Yeah. So it's a perennial spinach. It's a type of spinach. Or it's like spinach.

Kat (30:14)
Yeah. Shakes Shakespeare.

Well except yeah. Perennial spinach. Okay. Good King Henry. I've

I do want to note that I know I know Shakespeare wasn't under Henry the Eighth, but he was under Elizabeth, who was Henry the Eighth's daughter. Okay, everyone, please don't come yelling at me.

Tiffany (30:36)
Do you think people would actually c comment on that? You never know. You never know. also hops. Okay. She says is worth it, which I'm kind of like

Kat (30:38)
And King James, yeah. well. Yeah.

Okay. Yes. But they're

hard to grow. I think, I've heard. Well maybe just in

Tiffany (30:52)
Okay, I don't know.

I know nothing.

Kat (30:56)
But y they're supposed to be because you can make tea with them. You can you don't just have to brew beer with them. you can do all kinds of different things with hops. But okay. Sure. Yeah.

Tiffany (30:59)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah. She says it can take over though. I

think she well, I said she's in organ. So yeah.

Kat (31:12)
Right.

I was just it's probably because they're hard to grow here where there's not enough water or in New Mexico. 'Cause I know we had there was one brewery downtown in Albuquerque that had these really cool sculptures set up and they were planting hops, but they just couldn't it was too hot and too dry to keep them alive in the summer. But you think they're from like Germany. Hops are like you know they like mile milder climates, yeah.

Tiffany (31:15)
Maybe they like water. Yeah. Yeah.

okay. Bummer.

Yeah, that's true. They like the cold, maybe even. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. another one I never heard of, miner's lettuce.

Kat (31:43)
Nope.

To go with the sheep's lettuce or the lamb's lettuce? Okay.

Tiffany (31:47)
Yeah.

This one is actually a faux perennial, but it comes back. And it's a s this is a one of them that's available midwinter, but it's a small green, earthy kind of spinach like green, greenery, green, green, green thing. What are those? Micro green. I think maybe it c I don't know if you could call it a micro green, but it's like that. Sh Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (31:51)
Okay.

Okay.

Microgreen.

Pseudo microgreen. Faux perennial pseudo microgreen.

We've got all these great band names coming out of this up.

Tiffany (32:19)
Yeah, there

you go. That would be a funny band name, Faux Perennial. nettles, she says, are worth it.

Kat (32:23)
Mm-hmm.

Okay. If you can figure out how to

Tiffany (32:28)
Yeah. How did it I think you just boil it. I think what she said is it's not as hard as people think it is, and you just boil it and you can get the horrendous nettles off of it, but the one more is a nodding onion, which is a type of onion. I didn't really look in i into any of that. I don't know what it is, but it's a perennial and it comes back. 'Cause most onions don't, so that that is interesting. Rhubarb, she says, is worth it.

Kat (32:36)
Okay.

Right. You have to replant. Yeah.

Tiffany (32:57)
mushrooms. Kinda separate because they're not really in the same category. But she had two that she's like these aren't really perennials technically, but they are worth growing. And she says mushrooms. And I'm like, now I'm kind of curious about mushrooms. I don't have anywhere well

Kat (33:17)
You're gonna create a grow house, I can see it. You're gonna have

Tiffany (33:19)
I know.

Right? I mean people grow them in their closets, but

Kat (33:23)
I know.

Usually for nefarious purposes, but But yeah, I think well that's that's the joke is you just feed bullshit and leave in the dark and

Tiffany (33:26)
Well, that's true. That's true.

Mm.

Didn't you say that was what your like ideal life would be to be a mushroom?

Kat (33:38)
No, that's

a that's what my friend used to say about being a software developer. He's like, Our job is you feed us bullshit and leave us in the dark and we grow like mushrooms. Yeah.

Tiffany (33:43)
okay.

This is true.

This is true. she also said cherry tomatoes are really good at self seeding. So you basically just like let them drop and let the seeds

Kat (33:55)
Yes, they are.

Yeah. And

yeah. I had when we planted five years ago and my first roommate was living here, we had a whole bush of the next year. Just Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Self seed. Our basil is self seeding right now, but it's not in a place that it really can. We let we let our basil from last year like go to seed. It's taking forever though. But we don't have No, it's just taking f

Tiffany (34:05)
Yeah. It's awesome. And apparently the cherry variety's better, but I've actually had others come back. Yeah.

Uh-huh.

It's like really small.

Kat (34:28)
'Cause we were cutting it we we started growing it last I think our neighbor gave us some last June and we just didn't let it die over the winter and every time the flowers come we'd trim it off so it kept growing. And now it's this it's so spicy.

Tiffany (34:30)
I see.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it changes the flavor if it gets older.

Kat (34:43)
Yeah.

but apparently it can self seed too if it's in 'cause right now we ha we have it in like a window pot. But what it does is it, you know, goes to seed, dries out and then tips over and will replant, you know, if it's got earth there to replant. It doesn't. So we're we're actually harvesting the seeds. We've actually got some growing. Yeah. From seed. But yeah. So it'll self seed. Yeah.

Tiffany (34:50)
Mm.

cool. That's fun. That's awesome. Okay. Very cool.

So the ones that she says are less worth it. You may have never even heard of these. Hang on. Mm-hmm. No, you probably have never heard of any of these, but just so you know, it's kind of funny. So there's a Jerusalem Jerusalem artichoke. Have you heard of this? Have you ever tasted it? No. Did you know that it's nothing like a regular artichoke?

Kat (35:23)
Okay.

Yes, I've I've heard of Jerusalem artichokes. No.

I d I did I do believe I have heard that, yes.

Tiffany (35:39)
Okay, I didn't. And I looked it and I was like, what the F is this thing? It's a little potato, basically. But she says it takes up a ton of space and you get a very small harvest. And Amy says she didn't like the taste. But that's personal, so who knows. And then she also says that she found certain type of types of onions, like Egyptian walking onions or potato onions. There's lots of onions. They're they were too small to bother with.

Kat (35:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Mm.

Okay. Not worth it. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:08)
So try your knotting onions apparently instead.

There's also one called salad burn it. Salad burn it. I don't know why I said that. Yeah, that's that's correct, but it sounds like not a real word. it's like an herb and it tastes like a cucumber, and Amy says it's too small to bother with. And then the last one that's funny, Cale Cale, like kale from the sea. It's not actually from the sea, but

Kat (36:20)
Okay.

Okay.

Yes. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:38)
She says it tastes the way broccoli smells when it has been in the fridge way too long and starting to decompose.

Kat (36:44)
Probably really good for your digestive system, but Yeah. Just fiber and yeah, yeah, okay.

Tiffany (36:48)
I think it's super good for you, but it tastes horrid. Yeah.

So maybe it's an maybe you could acquire the taste, I don't know.

Kat (36:57)
Or hide it in enough dressing.

Tiffany (36:59)
Yeah, and I think other people actually on the forum that I was looking at said that they like the taste. So it's really up to other people, but yeah. It's like what? What's that?

Kat (37:05)
It's like Malort. Yeah.

Malort

It's a liqueur from Chicago basically. It's someday I'll have you try Malort. It's kind of a rite of passage to kind of film people trying Malort for the first time. But a Chicago handshake I think is a Mal a shot of Mallort and a Bud Light or something. Or a schlitz, I don't know, yeah.

Tiffany (37:20)
Okay.

boy.

Whoa, okay.

my god. Alright. Can't wait. Was it like people make it in their bathtub?

Kat (37:39)
No, no, no. Mallort there's a brand, Jepson Malort. It's it's made of the same so sorry. Brem brmr brr. It's made of the same ingredients as like anise flavor drinks like Ricard or Pastis or Absinthe even. It's got the same base as abs. It's wormwood, but it doesn't have the licorice flavor. So some people say it tastes like grapefruit. But those people are weirdos.

Tiffany (37:42)
Okay.

Okay. That's what I f figured. Yeah, I was gonna say absinthe, yeah.

interesting.

Hmm. I love grape root.

Okay. All right. I'll taste it whenever I finally come visit. so a tip some tips, I guess, actually. Is it just one tip? Yeah, one tip. A tip. So most of these are low growers. A lot of them are low growers. So you can plant them among like tomatoes or peppers or like other plants.

Kat (38:11)
Okay.

A tip. Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (38:34)
and that's a good approach. And

Kat (38:36)
Like garlic, I

assume.

Tiffany (38:39)
Yeah, it depends on the garlic. My aunt's garlic was huge. But like asparagus are pretty short, chives, all of those green things I talked about, the micro greens, as artichokes no, those things are huge, but a lot of them are low. So you could just plant them throughout. And it can also, which is I don't remember where I got this from, but it can act as a living mulch. A living edible mulch even.

Kat (38:41)
Okay. Chives and stuff though.

There you go. Yeah.

Tiffany (39:09)
So

Kat (39:09)
Okay.

Tiffany (39:09)
that leaves less space for weeds to get in. we talked about living mulch in our mulch episode, which was more entertaining than it sounds.

Kat (39:16)
Yes. Two

I know, yes. Surprisingly entertaining. Mulch.

Tiffany (39:21)
Yeah,

yeah. Bulch.

Kat (39:25)
With Harry. That's where Harry Vetch came from, actually.

Tiffany (39:27)
yes,

exactly. So for busy people, you know, you can add one or two perennial vegetables per year and just kinda test it out, see what works, see what doesn't. Yeah. I mean, hey, if that's your one, why not? I don't know if hartichokes are hard to grow. They might not be.

Kat (39:38)
I'm just gonna go straight into artichokes and just dive right in.

There's gotta be a reason I don't see them around Texas though, you know.

Tiffany (39:55)
Mm, maybe in your well

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. You could look into it. Yeah. I feel like asparagus would be harder for you than artichokes, but mm hmm. Yeah.

Kat (40:00)
I'm gonna look into it. Cause we are hardy no zone eight and that's not you said there's seven to eleven. yeah, I think it we think we're too hot for asparagus. I'll look it up. I'll see. I just imagine

it like one by my front door, you know, just like

Tiffany (40:17)
I was gonna say it's

gonna take up some space, but why not?

Kat (40:20)
Yeah. Well Sean doesn't like

the pomegranate tree, but I'm like, Okay, we're planting an artichow.

Tiffany (40:29)
You know what? Maybe does he like artichokes? Okay. Well.

Kat (40:33)
Not as much as I do. But

he hasn't had my special dipping sauce that's just garlic and mayonnaise. What is that called again? my brain is so I cannot remember words. Aeoli, yes. Just garlic and mayonnaise. Yeah.

Tiffany (40:39)
Ooh. yum.

Not aioli. Aeoli. okay. Okay.

Yeah, we made that once and I was like, how on earth is this that easy? Yes. It's so good. Yep. So around surrounding perennial vegetables, does the earth-friendly message need to come back to Earth? And I would say not necessarily. In fact, most people talking about perennial vegetables aren't really talking about their environmental benefits.

Kat (40:54)
It's so easy and it's so delicious. So good. Yeah.

Tiffany (41:15)
and the PLOS one the PLOS one study called them neglected and underutilized. So people aren't like touting this as like the next No. Yeah. So I don't think it's like crazy yeah, there's no like greenwash there's like none of that. So no. No.

Kat (41:24)
Right. They don't have a following on Instagram. Right.

There's no movement around them. They're not mushrooms, right? The way that mushrooms are. The stars.

Tiffany (41:43)
Yeah. But, you know, as far as like their granola rating, which is something that we like to do at the end of every episode to sort of just rate them, I would put right in the middle at Chewy, just because some of them are so difficult to grow and depends on your cli it just depends on so many things. that they're chewy. They're like, if you can manage it and make it work, that's awesome. But yeah, yeah.

Kat (42:06)
Okay.

It's like a th a three out of five. Okay. Yeah.

Tiffany (42:13)
yeah, I forgot to say that. People are like, what the F is Chewy? I don't know. Yeah. So yeah, out of five, it's like a three. So it's right in the middle. so yeah, that's all I had. And forty five minutes, you know? Ding ding ding.

Kat (42:14)
Yeah.

That's perfect. Look at that. Ding ding ding. We're like the

first we're it's the World Cup is on right now, so it's the first the first half is over. We have four minutes of stoppage time.

Tiffany (42:30)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So next week we are talking about food forests, which I'm you what?

Kat (42:42)
Food forests, which do leverage perennial vegetables to some extent.

They they use perennial fruits and vegetables to some extent. Yes. Although I didn't study them as much as you did, so that's interesting. But yeah, cool.

Tiffany (42:48)
this makes sense. This makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited because we talk about food forests in my certificate course, but we don't have enough at all. No, I was gonna say I don't know anything. All I've heard is the term, but we don't we haven't had time to actually go into what the hell they are. And so I'm really interested 'cause it sounds so cool, but I'm just like w in theory, i I get it, but I don't really know anything about them, so

Kat (43:01)
you're gonna know a lot more than I do then?

okay, well

Yeah.

Cool. Well I do have some facts that I think will be

Tiffany (43:22)
sweet. That's awesome. I'm excited. Alright, cool. Well, if you haven't already, please let me start the music. Please rate our show if you could and leave us a review, just a couple sentences about why you think we're awesome. I guess you could tell us why you think we're not awesome, but I don't care to see that. Yeah.

Kat (43:27)
Me too. Cool.

Yeah.

That's better suited to an email. Yeah. But

Tiffany (43:51)
Yeah.

Kat (43:51)
yeah. Tell us why we're awesome publicly and then take us around back and tell us why we're not privately. Yeah. Yeah. We'd love it. Yep. All right. Thank you. See you next week.

Tiffany (43:54)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But that means that would mean a lot for just a quick five stars. Cool. Thank you.

Bye.