Tiffany (00:01.902)
Hello Kat.

Kat (00:03.219)
Hello, Tiffany. I always say that in such a weird, creepy voice, like Hello Tiffany. It sounds like something from Alfred Hitchcock presents or something.

Tiffany (00:12.078)
As if mine wasn't. Hello cat.

how you doing?

Kat (00:20.154)
better every minute, how about you?

Tiffany (00:22.278)
probably worse every minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's a lot. we were just chatting about our layoff episode and one of our we did it for Patreon and one of our listeners, Don, sent us an absolutely lovely message. So shout out. Yeah, that that's not really how I wanted to phrase that. Just like

Kat (00:24.191)
No. Yeah, okay, maybe. You're allowed. You could be worse every minute if you need to.

Kat (00:37.149)
Yeah.

Kat (00:45.782)
horrifyingly sad, but

It was lovely. It was just nice to to like, Yes, solidarity. Like you if you're going through a layoff you're not alone and holy shnikes, it sucks.

Tiffany (00:53.953)
Yeah.

Tiffany (01:00.202)
Yeah. No, I know. It friggin' sucks. And just to hear that it helped was really nice to hear. Yeah, because now my husband also might lose his job in September. So we're doing great. This country this country is just we are just doing great.

Kat (01:14.815)
Knock w knock wood, I'm knocking wood. Yeah, no I know.

Kat (01:24.349)
y okay, real quick. One thing one one thing I was reading somebody said, you know, everybody's blaming AI for layoffs and it's not it's the economy stupid. Like the economy's not good and that's what it is. Nobody's expanding, nobody's taking risks company wise, because everything is so uncertain. So it's it's you know, AI has not replaced everyone, it's just companies are laying people off and they can blame AI and that looks better

Tiffany (01:25.048)
But we're gonna be fine. So yeah.

Tiffany (01:31.182)
Mm-hmm.

Mm, mm, mm.

Tiffany (01:40.408)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (01:52.426)
for the numbers for the stock market, but it's not the truth. So anyway, I read that somewhere and I I it was like, that makes sense. We're living Yeah, we're li we're living in an undercover recession, so

Tiffany (01:55.148)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It makes perfect sense. I'm sure it contributes, but yeah.

Mhm. Yeah, totally. And yet some people in charge would tell us, We're doing great So

Kat (02:12.079)
and we're in a K shaped economy too, right? So the the well off are getting pay raises and the not so well off are losing their jobs and anyway, I'm gonna talk about that in our next episode too, so Yeah. Yeah. Tonight

Tiffany (02:15.232)
Right.

Tiffany (02:21.392)
sweet, okay. yeah, that makes sense. So Okay, well on yeah, tonight on tonight's show, it's actually so boring sounding, but so interesting. So do you want to guess my least favorite gardening job?

Kat (02:36.041)
Mm.

Kat (02:40.807)
Mulching. just just 'cause I know what the but I also do not love it.

Tiffany (02:41.846)
Yes.

Tiffany (02:47.258)
No. It's back breaking. You're heaving those heavy ass bags around. Smells bad. No, it does. Yeah. And the bags rip and you're cursing everybody's name. Yeah.

Kat (02:50.383)
S stinky. I don't like the way it smells. It smells like vinegar to me and I don't like it. Yeah.

Kat (03:01.503)
And it just and you and it's not like it just gets everywhere, you know? You're like Yeah.

Tiffany (03:04.692)
Uh-huh. Yeah, you're spilling it. Yeah. And if I don't want to do that labor, I've I have paid somebody eight hundred bucks to do that for me. That's insane. I haven't done that more than once. That was when we first bought the house. Yeah. But I'm like, excuse me? Eight hundred dollars. Like looking back, I'm like, that was dumb. Why did I do that? But live and learn. so

Kat (03:13.993)
Holy shnikes.

Okay, yeah, you're like, okay, that's

Tiffany (03:30.731)
Hardwood mulch actually didn't used to be much of a thing, which is really interesting. So I read this article called The Evolution of Hardwood Mulch. More interesting than it sounds. And mulch started gaining popularity when the lumber industry was booming in the sixties and seventies and they had all this excess waste. Mm-hmm. So that sort of became a thing and people started loving like your dyed mulch, your black mulch, your god awful

Kat (03:49.693)
Right. What are they gonna do with it? Right.

Tiffany (03:59.513)
We'll I'll explain why Yeah. I'll explain why. Some of it's dyed brown and that just makes me want to cry. Yeah. Uh-huh. No, I'll explain why that's so why you want to avoid dyed mulch. But did you know that instead of scheduling in that annual back breaking labor, mulch can actually be alive.

Kat (03:59.747)
my god, the red yeah, okay, yeah.

Kat (04:06.527)
'Cause it's already brown. Okay, but I get it. Yeah.

Kat (04:25.289)
Tell me more.

Tiffany (04:27.15)
And using living mulch gives you all the benefits of regular mulch with like ten percent of the labor.

Kat (04:36.613)
the mind reels. I'm just envision I'm just like Ha Okay. All right. Yes.

Tiffany (04:39.694)
Yes. It's an oasis. plus you can get a thriving pollinator garden out of it as well. So, today we're exploring all kinds of mulch, but I'm especially excited about the idea of living mulch plants helping keep other plants alive. I've seen it work in my front garden beds, and I'm excited to share what my experience and research shows. Yeah, welcome to greening up my act

Kat (04:52.735)
What do you know?

Kat (05:06.761)
I'm stoked.

Tiffany (05:29.676)
Alright, sweet. So

Kat (05:32.541)
Yeah.

Yeah, this is w that it's this is one of those topics that you're like I didn't even it's it yeah, it's like taxes or something. It's like not something you think about and you know, like if somebody's talking to you about it, you're like But okay, okay, blown my mind already just with that intro. I'm like,

Tiffany (05:35.02)
That was my interim.

Tiffany (05:43.864)
Yeah.

Tiffany (05:53.255)
good, I know. I was shocked. I was just like, Wait, mulch is interesting?

Kat (05:56.712)
Well we've been yeah. We yeah, we've been talking about we need to mulch 'cause it gets so dry here in Texas. You know, you want to mulch to keep moisture for the dry summer and then in the winter you want mulch to protect and so all these and it's like, I've been so bad about doing that, and it's because I don't want to go to frickin' Home Depot and buy giant bags of bark. Okay.

Tiffany (06:03.285)
Mm.

Tiffany (06:19.618)
Yep. 'Cause you have a car that they fit in even, like it's just so annoying.

Kat (06:23.739)
Like I could maybe put two bags in. Yeah. Yeah, two bags. We have a Hyundai. Sean has a Mini Cooper hatchback, so that's fun. you'd be surprised. Hatchbacks fit a lot, but yeah, it's still it's like we don't have a truck, you know.

Tiffany (06:26.72)
Okay, yeah, exactly. So Okay, yes, it's such a pain. Okay, that's not much bigger, so that's true.

Yeah. Yeah. Joe wanted a Mini Cooper for a while actually. We I think we test drove one. I can't remember now. we did, but it was like very old and we ran the codes and it was like forty five codes of terribleness. So he's like, don't think so, yeah. which did you know that when you're buying a new a used car, you can actually buy this like eighty dollar little machine and plug it into the car and it will run the codes for you and you can figure out what's wrong with it. 'Cause the dealers won't tell you.

Kat (06:44.297)
They're fun. They're fun.

Kat (06:54.034)
Okay, don't do that then, yeah.

Kat (07:05.703)
Not know that.

Kat (07:09.361)
I would usually just I usually just take it to my own mechanic and he'll do that, but

Tiffany (07:14.378)
Yeah, you can do that too. Or you can just it's like it takes like five minutes. It's crazy. It yeah. Anyway, that's just a life tip for anybody who use car shopping. yes, it's so easy to do. We've done we've been swindled so many times. So we're like we learned our lessons. okay, so who are we? Welcome to our show. Who are we, Kat?

Kat (07:19.517)
Well.

Kat (07:25.129)
Don't get swindled.

Kat (07:31.357)
no.

Kat (07:38.942)
Yes. we are two women with marketing backgrounds who have an interest in living a green lifestyle and have been trying to dig in for the past ten seasons. which is wild, like three and a half years. trying to dig into what you as an individual or we as an i as individuals can do. also we talk about, you know, what corporations are doing for or against

Tiffany (07:43.608)
Mm.

Tiffany (07:52.472)
Crazy.

Yeah.

Kat (08:08.713)
things that could protect the world against climate change, but it's not just climate change. It's, you know, our water, it's public health, it's natural ecosystems. I mean, there's so much that goes into it. yeah, I think I think we started out being like, yeah, we like DIY dish soap, and now we're like okay. Social justice includes labor rights for working pe you know, like and just

Tiffany (08:22.027)
Yes.

Tiffany (08:30.424)
Ha ha ha.

Right. Which I s yeah, we I still use my DIY not dish soap, but dish soap with the

Kat (08:42.193)
Not don't it. Just up was a our first slot soggy granola, I think. Our first bad bad choice. Dishwasher detergent. Yep, but I yeah, I use I just use my Dr. Bronner's spray to clean the something today. Yeah. So Yeah. I mean, we've learned a lot, but it's also like it's the whole Dunning Krueger thing where you you start something out and you're like, I kinda know this and then the more you learn the more you know you don't know. So, yeah.

Tiffany (08:46.909)
yeah, the dishwasher, yes. It totally was.

Tiffany (08:55.2)
Yep, yep. Yeah. It's awesome.

Tiffany (09:08.652)
Yes. Yeah, which is kinda overwhelming sometimes. But we're all in it together. Nobody nobody knows shit.

Kat (09:13.189)
yeah. Yeah, we can all be novices novices together.

Tiffany (09:18.87)
Yeah, and anybody who's an expert in one thing, like the guy who was like the expert on clover lawns, like he's not an expert on frickin' Email marketing. Yeah, electric cars. Or email marketing. Yeah. No, I'm like, I'm not, yeah. Yeah, it's like you can't know everything. So Yeah. yeah. We definitely know A P style before. Sure. Too much. Yeah.

Kat (09:26.117)
Email marketing.

Yeah, right? I was like things we do. I'm like SEO keywords. Yeah.

Kat (09:38.373)
A P style. He doesn't know AP style.

Kat (09:45.213)
Yeah. Serial commas for the win. Not A P style. But anyway.

Tiffany (09:48.239)
okay, so my sources. I actually had a lot because I got kinda into this one. I have a cat meowing. Did you hear her? Okay. Yeah, she's under my feet. She might join us, but so that evolution of hardwood mulch article that I mentioned. I also watched this YouTube video, Mulch as a Dryland Strategy. Really interesting. But only sort of relates 'cause he's like turning a desert into

Kat (09:55.506)
Yeah.

I did.

Okay.

Tiffany (10:18.278)
little e oasis which is really interesting. and you can do it in a sustainable way. University of Michigan Leaf mulch study. Another study from University of California. Cooperative extension. So they were like extension on water retention and mulch. Plants journal. A journal just called Plants. I was like huh, I need to re I think I need to read that more. Yeah.

Kat (10:19.76)
Okay. Mm-hmm.

Kat (10:39.807)
Plants, the journal. I like that. Yeah, you push probably subscribe.

Tiffany (10:46.386)
A little pamphlet from University of California also on mulch. gardening know how, which was just like a website, but they talked about eco-friendly mulch. And then we kind of get into living mulch and that's where this comes in, but like growing a greener world is another website. They talked about this mulch certification. There is a mulch and soil council guide. Or sorry, mulch and soil council. And they certify mulch. Don't know if you knew that. Now you do.

Kat (11:15.625)
Wow. Like you're saying, there's experts all over the world.

Tiffany (11:16.522)
Yeah, we'll talk about it. Yes. If you're a mulch expert, you're not a friggin' clover expert, so you know, can only Yes, yes. And then just an article on Living Mulch from the Edge of Wor Edge of Woods Nursery, which I didn't see where they're from, but I love when nurseries have blogs. Makes me happy. Yeah, it's just nice. So, alright, what are we talking about today?

Kat (11:23.207)
Right. Neech niche topics. Yeah.

Kat (11:37.353)
Me too.

Kat (11:44.735)
Mulch. It's just such a b I mean, even the word is like mulch. It's one of those English words where it's like It sounds like

Tiffany (11:45.47)
Mulch. I know

Yes. You just have to say it mulch. Like just

Kat (11:57.482)
Bulch. We're talking about bulch tonight. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like a sound you make when you're throwing up a little bit. Bulch.

Tiffany (12:07.124)
Yes. Yes. But it's very important. and we're specifically talking about organic mulch. There's also and like in the end I'm gonna be talking about living mulch more than anything, but there's also like rubber mulch, which is d junk, just avoid. Or there's plastic weed barrier that people use to get rid of their weeds or

Kat (12:22.311)
Okay. yes. Yes.

Tiffany (12:34.589)
supposedly to help control their weeds. Not talking about that shit, 'cause that is also shit and I can get have a whole episode if you want me to talk about that more. Yeah.

Kat (12:41.053)
We might 'cause I have some and I they need to be talked out of it. I have some pretty bad weeds. Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (12:46.735)
In I used to I used to when I first bought this house 'cause I didn't know. Basically if you pull it up, your soil underneath is completely dead.

Kat (12:56.347)
Yeah, 'cause it's just anaerobic and

Tiffany (12:58.39)
Mm-hmm. And you'll be amazed how much healthier it will be once you get rid of that shit. I still have some from our previous owner, just like that I find and I'm like, pull that shit up.

Kat (13:08.937)
Yeah, my

My dogs keep for a long time. They would like dig it up and it would just be like hair kind of stuff, you know? Blah.

Tiffany (13:13.879)
Right.

Tiffany (13:17.834)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's not good. We can have a little upside if you wanted. But in what context are we talking about mulch in its benefits in helping keep your pollinator garden alive? Or just your garden. Your veggie garden either. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Just your plants and your trees. Mm-hmm. Alright, so what is mulch? What is mulch?

Kat (13:23.068)
Yeah, we might.

Kat (13:31.879)
Okay. Yeah, or your fruit trees or your

Any plants outdoors, yes.

Kat (13:44.541)
Bulch. Sorry I'm gonna say that all night, yeah. Bulch. What is bulch?

Tiffany (13:48.335)
Little spulch. basically it's an organic material that does three main things. You mentioned it helps hold in moisture, it creates a weed barrier, and it adds nutrients to the soil as it breaks down. It is actually so I'm currently doing a permaculture design certificate through Oregon State University. If anybody's interested, it's online. permaculture, I don't know if I mentioned it, is basically like

Kat (14:04.777)
Yes.

Tiffany (14:18.284)
Sustainable agriculture is another way to think of permaculture. in the permaculture system, mulch is one of the most essential parts. And that's been very surprising for me.

Kat (14:30.995)
So underrated. It makes sense. When I think b I think it's yeah, it's like an infrastructure thing that you don't think about that is like so important. And I'm trying to think of an analogy 'cause I don't know. Yeah, it's like okay, that actually makes a lot of sense. Like you can't

Tiffany (14:32.171)
It is

Tiffany (14:48.01)
I know. Yeah, I've learned so many obvious things that I'm like, duh. Yeah. Why would you really?

Kat (14:54.117)
Just don't think about. Yeah. Right.

Tiffany (14:59.764)
Yeah. But the thing is they're not really talking about like big bags of hardwood mulch that you buy at Home Depot, like you said. which is maybe what you imagine. I think that's what most people probably imagine when they think of mulch. That's what I first think of is like a big bag.

Kat (15:13.157)
Yeah. Or just like if you've ever been on a corporate campus or a university campus or something and in the spring, you know, or in a city even, it's just like that you think it's mulch shoot, it's mulch season and it's just that stinky brown bark like stuff that's in the ground like on the ground yes. Mhm.

Tiffany (15:31.234)
Yes.

Tiffany (15:36.565)
massive piles everywhere. Yes, exactly. so what are the kinds of mulch? Because that's one of them. It can be shredded hardwood, it can be pine straw, which is just fallen pine needles. I know. It is, it's beautiful. it can be wood chips, it can be bark, it can be straw, rocks even, can be act as mulch. usually people buy

Kat (15:51.636)
Nice.

Tiffany (16:05.716)
this kind of mulch. Sometimes you can find that type of thing around your house. Like I've found pine needles around my house that I've been able to use as mulch for my entire front yard actually. But there are other ways to get it for free, but usually you're buying that stuff. you can actually potentially call a local tree service and get wood chips delivered because they have left over. Yeah.

Kat (16:31.679)
When people take a tree down, yes. So my friend in Salt Lake City, they took a tree down in their yard and had a wood chipper come and then they just had this pile of mulch on their front and they used that to kill some grass and their or something. Yeah, but

Tiffany (16:46.272)
Yep. Yeah. Totally. And I think you can just call 'cause we had I think I mentioned this, but we had one of the tree service, like the chipper people drive by us and we were just out mowing and he pulled in our driveway and he was like, Do you want this? And we're like, Yes, please, my God. So that was cool. But I think you can actually like call them and be like, Hey, y'all got any free it's gonna be less it's not gonna be as shredded, it's gonna be sort of like wood chips, but

Kat (16:57.874)
yeah, and you were like, Hey.

Kat (17:07.167)
Do you have a name?

Kat (17:14.729)
Chunky. Yeah.

Tiffany (17:16.418)
Fine. Yeah. you can also use leaves. We're gonna talk a little bit about leaves. Do we have a visitor?

Kat (17:22.833)
I'm s yes, I was gonna text him and be like

Tiffany (17:27.767)
that's awesome.

Kat (17:28.575)
yeah, we've been drinking wine and I just ran out. Sorry guys. We had wine with dinner tonight and I was gonna text him and be like, I could use some more and so he just brought me the rest. I didn't even text him. He just read my mind. That's how Sorry ladies, he's taken. Anyway. I know.

Tiffany (17:32.62)
Yeah, well

Tiffany (17:36.691)
nice. Perfect timing.

That's how in sync you are. All right. That's awesome. yeah, you can use leaves as well. Yes. We we are gonna talk a little bit more about leaves because we did talk about them in our Leave the Leaves episode a little bit, but

Kat (17:51.519)
Okay, that's what I was wondering. 'Cause I was like, hmm, okay.

Kat (17:58.696)
Leave the leaves. Which is what I yell at Ada every time she's walking down the street and she eats a leaf off the crown. I say, Leave the leaves, Ada Anyway. Ada's my dog for newbie listeners. But yes. Yeah. But

Tiffany (18:08.108)
That's awesome. Was there a weird sound effect that just happened?

Kat (18:13.095)
I think maybe it was me hitting the no.

Tiffany (18:15.2)
Okay, 'cause it sounded like a child laughing and it made me feel weird. 'Cause it's not mine. Yeah. Is there a ghost?

Kat (18:22.431)
Can we go on a little tangent?

Ada has b Yes, we think. Ada has been like really scared lately of something and we don't know what. Like she just like like a few days ago we were walking down the street and she smelled something and she tucked her tail between her legs and she like ran home. And she did it on another side of the street and then last night or l yesterday afternoon she did it in the house.

Like something spooked her and she like she went, I I I you know, that thing the dogs do when they like skitter on the hardwood floors. Ran into our bedroom where she never really goes, jumped on the bed and wouldn't come out for three hours. And she has been spooked. Today she spent the day she was outside until it got too hot, and then she came into my office here and I was in the kitchen. I like was in webinars and just like making pasta in the kitchen and she would not come out. She stuck

Tiffany (18:56.405)
Yeah.

Tiffany (19:02.359)
my god.

Kat (19:19.163)
She slept on a chair in my office where I was not all afternoon. And she's been just we're like, Yeah, it's a ghost. So there might be a child laughing. I'm sorry.

Tiffany (19:23.105)
Whoa.

Tiffany (19:27.564)
my god, I wonder if the if it got caught on our recording. I'm like so curious to go back and right? my god. That's what it sounded like.

Kat (19:33.088)
well now we're having paranormal activity on our podcast. We're like we're talking about mulch and the child's like ha ha ha ha ha ha But I think it might have been my wine bottle hitting the floor when I put it down.

Tiffany (19:44.032)
Hopefully. Yeah. Or else maybe my neighbor, but I don't think so. I don't know. Yeah. It could have been that. I don't hear people out there.

Kat (19:48.823)
you do have a window open.

Anyway, sweet dreams.

Tiffany (19:56.271)
Great. At least we're recording remotely. God. That's crazy. All right, well we'll listen and maybe make a reel out of it if we hear anything, so okay.

Kat (19:57.866)
The Victorian child that haunts my house, yeah.

Kat (20:06.727)
I didn't hear it, so okay, sorry. Jeez. Okay, back to mulch. So, types of mulch. Leaves leave the leaves. We're going to thle Okay. Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (20:11.854)
Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We had a Leave the Leaves episode and we talked a little bit about it. We're gonna talk about leaves in a little bit also. there's also green mulch, which is another way that some people call living mulch, but I think of green mulch as like fresh green cuttings. Yes. The grass and you can throw it yes, exactly. people also call it chop and drop mulch. So yeah.

Kat (20:29.137)
Yeah, that's like when you mow the lawn and you just take whatever's in there and put it. Yeah.

Kat (20:38.687)
Cute.

Tiffany (20:40.172)
So grass, chickweed there are some specific plants that are good for that, like chives I'm imagining 'cause they're tall. Chickweed, dandelions, parsley that kind of thing. Right.

Kat (20:51.007)
Smells nice. Like we don't really choose the weeds that we cut in our front quote unquote lawn, so I don't know. Anyway.

Tiffany (20:57.332)
Uh-huh. Yeah. No, I know. It's my god, yeah. We we've not chosen the our lawn at all. there's also leaf mulch, which is just actually no, this is where we're talking about leaves and I'm wondering if we should take a break and then we can talk about l a little bit about leaves after Okay, after the break. Alrighty. Sounds good. Yo my god

Kat (21:02.495)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (21:06.366)
Yeah.

Kat (21:15.263)
Okay.

Kat (21:19.089)
Yeah, it's probably about time. Sure. I'll check out the Victorian Child in my living room.

Tiffany (21:43.055)
Sweet. All right. any children during that break? thank goodness. Thank goodness. okay, so there is a study at the Michigan at from Michigan State University and they researched leaf mulch to see whether it contributed to suppressing weeds or fertilizing your either your lawn. I think they looked at lawns, but garden beds, whatever.

Kat (21:48.081)
No, nothing has shown up. I'm sorry.

Tiffany (22:13.034)
And the researchers found that leaf mulch didn't serve either of those things by itself very well. Which is so interesting because everybody we I remember during our Leave the Leaves episode, a lot of Yeah. And it's not that it doesn't, but it doesn't do it very well by itself. so if you're cutting them into your lawn, you're probably gonna have better luck. But if you're just using it as like a mulch on top of your flower beds

Kat (22:18.649)
Okay.

Kat (22:23.923)
Yeah, we're like, yeah, just leave it. It's so good. It's fertilizing and it's

Kat (22:30.792)
Okay.

Kat (22:39.581)
Because they need more decomposition to happen, right? Okay.

Tiffany (22:43.34)
Yes. Yeah. It's just like when you're making compost, it's like leaves by themselves will eventually degrade, but it takes a lot longer. They need green stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So green stuff helps. so both properties go up when you add green stuff to your leaves as mulch.

Kat (22:51.635)
Yeah, like yeah, two years or something. Yeah.

Kat (23:04.937)
So if you mix you rake your leaves and you mix it with your grass cuttings, that makes a better mulch. Okay. Okay, and to be clear, we want mulch to do two things. Kill weeds and fertilize. And maybe insulate, right? So it might do okay. So maybe the leaves do the insulation though? Because you said it doesn't

Tiffany (23:07.766)
Mm-hmm. you mix it with your brass and it makes it Yeah. Yes. Yep. Definitely.

Tiffany (23:19.518)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, those three things, yeah.

Tiffany (23:27.924)
Yeah, I don't think they do that great of a job with that either. Yeah. Yeah. Not it's better than bare soil. and it depends how thick they are. Like if it's a thick layer of leaves, yes. But if it's just like s a few leaves on there it's not gonna do much.

Kat (23:31.122)
Stupid leaves.

Kat (23:35.966)
Okay, yeah.

Kat (23:41.343)
'cause I'm just thinking

Kat (23:45.214)
My gutters are clogged because we just have forgotten to clean them and they're full of leaves and I'm like, that would probably make excellent mulch. 'Cause it's full of like wet gunk and leaves. Okay.

Tiffany (23:54.753)
Yeah, totally. That would. Uh-huh. Yes. It probably would. Yeah. And some people don't like the look of it. If you Yeah. Yeah, but I mean like leaves by themselves. But if you shred them, I think they look nicer. I don't know how to shred And also I don't care enough. So

Kat (24:01.683)
I'll tell Sean, he'll be thrilled.

Kat (24:06.016)
no, it's gross. And it's probably stinky.

Kat (24:11.508)
too.

Yeah, like

I know. Yeah, you'd have to You're just out there with like my paper shredder, my little office paper shredder, just like Confetti

Tiffany (24:21.134)
Scissors, yeah.

Tiffany (24:26.158)
Yeah, like I mean, the only option I have is a lawnmower and I that even that is like too much work for me, so y there are like bag attachments to your lawnmower where you could take that and shred or spread them out, but

Kat (24:33.5)
Yeah, yeah.

Kat (24:37.585)
yeah.

Kat (24:41.323)
Sean bags b because of our weeds because he doesn't want to spread the seeds when he cuts the lawn. So he bags and puts it in the compost bin, not our we don't have compost pile, but yeah. My dad used to just he would not use a bag when he mowed the lawn and just let the the green Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Tiffany (24:46.657)
Yeah, that's smart.

Tiffany (24:51.469)
Yeah.

Tiffany (24:59.254)
Yeah, that's what we do. Mostly out of laziness. So and well, it's not really laziness, we have a freaking acre. So it's like way too much.

Kat (25:06.033)
Yeah. It's like a Roomba, it has to be you're like, Come here, Roomba, let me empty you and

Tiffany (25:13.146)
Yeah, eight hours later. Yes, exactly. okay, so but the most exciting option for mulch is living mulch, as mentioned.

Kat (25:14.887)
Yeah. You're like cool. Yeah.

Kat (25:25.533)
Okay. Which not to be confused with the Victorian child that lives in my house. Living Mulch sounds sounds like something out of a horror movie though, doesn't it? Like Living Mulch It's coming to get you. Maybe that's what Ada's afraid of. The living mulch.

Tiffany (25:39.918)
It does.

Tiffany (25:45.139)
Maybe. Maybe you have living mulch wandering through your hallways.

Kat (25:50.372)
I'm I might have to have somebody design Living Mulch the monster. It should be our it's gonna be this It's like the trash heap from Fraggle Rock. Living Mulch, but scarier. Yeah.

Tiffany (25:54.833)
my god. It should yeah, it should be our mascot.

Yes.

Tiffany (26:05.42)
I love it. That's awesome. not quite so scary in real life, but I do appreciate that sym symbolism. Yeah. basically it's just gr either ground cover like plants or just regular plants that are can be annuals. Yeah. It's nothing nothing crazy. It's just plants.

Kat (26:11.742)
Living love.

Kat (26:24.103)
Kat (26:27.685)
Literally living, not

Kat (26:33.407)
Huh. Duh.

Again, yeah, this is like yeah, obvious.

Tiffany (26:39.83)
It's like a mystery in my mulch episode. Yeah, no, it's it's can be annuals, they can be perennials, they can be whatever, as long as they cover the ground, they hold in moisture, they add nutrients, and they do not let weeds grow up.

Kat (26:56.103)
Enlighten me. What what kind of plants are these, please?

Tiffany (26:57.354)
Okay. It do it honestly I don't think it matters.

Kat (27:02.055)
Okay, but like I can't plant chrysanthemums and have them they're not I need some specifics. Let me know. Okay. Clover? I don't know.

Tiffany (27:12.192)
Okay. Ideally so some people do go that down that like ground cover route. So they like I have some okay. So like some people say like oregano and thyme, especially there's like is it called creeping thyme? Yeah. So there's those kind of options. But honestly, any native plant, trees are good for this because they drop their leaves. Really like dense, thick trees.

Kat (27:29.023)
Creeping time. Yeah.

Tiffany (27:41.856)
Not like a tree in the middle of your yard. That's not gonna help you so much.

Kat (27:45.545)
I'm thinking

Tiffany (27:47.445)
No, pine trees though do. They will create a mulch underneath them. Like that's why you're walking through a pine tree forest and it's like beautiful. so yeah, you can do a ground cover kind of like flocks or whatever. But I mean I have all kinds of prennial flowers in my front bed and they are their own mulch. In the sense that they help hold water in, they don't dry out.

Because they've been there, they've been established for like three or four years and they shade the ground. So they shade their own roots so it doesn't evaporate as much. They're super crowded in there. So when they die in the winter, I just let it all kind of die down. I'll cut it down a little bit and then just let it kinda sit. So they give nutrients back. And

what was the other good thing about it? and no weeds come ever. I don't have any weeds.

Kat (28:51.391)
Okay, you've got to come fix my garden beds and my because maybe okay, maybe the thing is that I should just give in to these weeds and things being their own they're their own living mulch and they're just like

Tiffany (29:05.216)
It depends on the weed. Sean is probably right that if it's like some invasive bullshit, then you should probably not.

Kat (29:10.163)
Well see that's I we need to go through 'cause I know we have I I don't know how much of it is native and how much of it is inv invasive.

Tiffany (29:15.018)
Yeah. My guess because I did this for my brother in law recently, is most of it's probably invasive.

Kat (29:22.803)
I'm gonna w I think it's like grass seed that's like blown 'cause it's some of it does. Yeah.

Tiffany (29:27.968)
It looks like grass? okay. I mean grass is fine. It's not gonna spread.

Kat (29:33.777)
No, I know, but it's like our lawn is so patchy looking.

Tiffany (29:37.358)
Okay.

Kat (29:39.04)
'Cause like when when I moved in, the house had been sitting vacant for two or three months and nobody had watered the lawn. And it had been a nice nice quote unquote sod lawn, but nobody had watered it. And then I wasn't gonna water it. So it just kind of was dirt and then it's been overtaken by weeds. and I don't know what the weeds are. I know that there's like I just need to go out there with my Google lens, you know, on my camera and be like, What is this thing? What is this thing? 'Cause there's

Tiffany (29:49.419)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (29:56.758)
I see, I see, I see.

Tiffany (30:04.812)
Yeah.

Kat (30:07.977)
We get beggar's lace, which are from something that's like Queen Anne's lace. I don't know. I'll I'll catalog but Sean just cuts a lawn every week or two weeks and the lawn, as we call it, but it's a it's a weed forest, so

Tiffany (30:12.961)
Okay.

Tiffany (30:21.976)
Yeah.

Tiffany (30:25.57)
How big is it? 'Cause I feel like yours might be small enough to smaller than yours. Yeah.

Kat (30:28.797)
sm it's smaller than yours, but gosh. I don't know. We have a pretty large front lawn.

Tiffany (30:33.07)
To manage

okay. I was I haven't been to your house, so I didn't know.

Kat (30:39.769)
I know. What is this? I haven't been to your house either. This is wild. We haven't seen each other in two years or something.

Tiffany (30:43.598)
So stupid, yeah. I know, it really is. okay, that's interesting. So in that case, you can

Kat (30:46.579)
This is wild.

Tiffany (31:00.3)
Okay, okay, okay. You're bringing up a good point because this is more for like like flower beds. Yes. It's lawn is hard. I don't like

Kat (31:01.735)
Yeah.

Kat (31:06.865)
Intentional flower beds. Okay. Not your lawn lawn. I don't people don't mulch lawns either, technically.

Tiffany (31:14.883)
Right. You could turn part of it into a flower bed.

Kat (31:20.093)
Well, so I have two flower beds in my front in front of my house. and morning glories spring up every year. Which fine, I like morning glories. But there's like this grass weed. So like I you know, I've planted mums, which I like how they look in the fall, but they're not native to here. I've planted salvia, which is native. but even I even put down on one of my flower beds I put down the weed barrier mulch or

Tiffany (31:22.51)
Mm.

Tiffany (31:39.189)
Mm.

Mm.

Kat (31:49.14)
weed barrier which I now regret soil and then planted them and then mulch. and the grass just comes through. You know, it's like so I want my flower beds to look nicer. Yes.

Tiffany (31:52.118)
Yeah, I mean.

Tiffany (31:58.157)
Okay. That's what most people do.

Yeah.

Tiffany (32:08.418)
this is in your flower beds. The grass is coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Basically, you have to fill them as full of plants as possible.

Kat (32:17.597)
All right, Sean. Guess what's happening next week?

Tiffany (32:22.638)
And yeah, and rocks can help. I mean, it's hard 'cause I don't know Texas, but there are like lots of different options for like drought resistant flower beds.

Kat (32:22.665)
But I I have to first figure out which plants, but yeah.

Kat (32:36.467)
Yeah, Salvia Salvia's definitely and you know, I could just go out there and maybe weed once in a while. That'd be nice, right? No, I don't want to. Yes. Yeah. Cause it yeah

Tiffany (32:38.765)
Yeah.

Tiffany (32:43.97)
Yeah, but I don't think you should have to. That is my opinion.

'Cause I don't have to in my front bed. I literally leave it alone. I'll give it a chop in the spring because otherwise it grows too tall. I want it to be more bushy. So I'll give like my Aster a little they call it a Chelsea chop, I think. and that's it. That's all I've done so far this year. And it's beautiful.

Kat (33:03.283)
That's cute.

Kat (33:08.563)
You've gotta come. You've gotta come figure out my flower beds, 'cause

Tiffany (33:13.068)
Yeah, I would love to. I don't even have to come. Turns out I can do most of it online. I could try.

Kat (33:19.475)
Virtual we should record this virtual session and We're on Riverside, we're like with her microphones and our computers, like, okay, so Don't be do look out for the Victorian child. Whoops, don't trip. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Tiffany (33:21.642)
Yes, exactly.

Tiffany (33:30.126)
Don't mind the laughter. But yeah, so I mean that's honestly it is like

Kat (33:39.103)
Just fill your flower bed effing full of native flowers and it'll hopefully drown out the invasives. Okay. Like flocks, yeah.

Tiffany (33:40.824)
Fill it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I don't mean right away. I'm gonna get into that. Because stuff spreads and especially if it's like native and it's happy, it's gonna spread really quickly within like by year two or three, you're gonna be like, Holy moly, this is like way more than I originally put in. I should show you pictures of like my first year versus now, 'cause it's just like explosion. So it's not like you have to crow you don't wanna crowd it right away, but

I'll kinda get into like year one, year two, year three. but yeah, like funny enough, having a full crowded pollinator garden is one of the best ways to ensure that your pollinator garden does not die. Ain't that funny.

Kat (34:26.495)
What do you know?

Strength in numbers, yeah.

Tiffany (34:31.414)
Yes. So real quick I'm gonna run through like what eco friendly claims 'cause every episode we talk about like what eco friendly claims is the mulch well sometime This is our format that we're sticking to. so the mulch mulch fanatics, what eco friendly claims are they making? And I mentioned the three, but main three is use less and less water over time.

Kat (34:39.209)
Well, sort of every episode. Sometimes we don't Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (34:58.264)
create a weed barrier and add nutrients. So I looked into each of these and it is really interesting.

The first one, use less and less water over time. Mulch does, especially a living mulch, but you build a layer of organic matter that helps retain moisture over time. And turns out, boy boy, you can go down a rabbit hole with this one. With most things. But so some people say lots of things, but

Kat (35:23.039)
bad, yeah.

Tiffany (35:32.186)
my summary of it and from personal experience and from the general consist consensus among gardeners, this is very true.

But sawdust or fine really finely ground wood products or compost even, like a thick layer of compost can actually prevent water from reaching the roots of the plants. Yeah. So basically if it's like really dense mulch Yeah. It needs to be porous enough to get

Kat (35:53.759)
I believe that.

Kat (35:58.12)
You want there to be space between it. Yeah. 'Cause yeah, otherwise it's just keeping the water above ground. And roots are not above ground. So

Tiffany (36:06.464)
Yes, exactly. and that's especially true if you're watering if you're just watering on top of the mulch. You can do like an irrigation system, but like who's got time for that? So

Kat (36:16.723)
My father, but yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:18.048)
Yeah, no, eventually, but not for a minute for me. the other claim, the second claim is that it creates a weed barrier. So mulch suffocates the weeds, it blocks sunlight, and it helps prevent weeds from growing. And I said specifically, like, yes, regular mulch will do this. It's not gonna be perfect at it. I feel like living mulch is way more effective.

Because weeds still come up, even if even if you mulch the shit out of a flower bed, meaning like hardwood mulch.

Kat (36:50.52)
Yeah. yeah, that's the thing that's that's why I had the weed bear 'cause I have mulched and it was like, and the weeds are back, you know.

Tiffany (36:58.24)
Yeah, it helps, but it's pff it's not perfect. The only thing I found that actually makes it so I do not have to weed anymore in this specific bed. I have other beds that aren't as like grown out yet is other plants. That's it. And it makes so much sense, right? There's just not space for them to grow. So and Yeah. And there's not really as much like sunlight getting to the ground, so they're not

Kat (37:14.291)
Hm. That makes sense though. Yeah. Right. Like you don't you can't hang out with us. Yeah.

Tiffany (37:27.234)
Weeds aren't like that happy there. Yeah. So the third claim is that it adds nutrients to the soil. And I looked this up in the plants journal. They found they studied black ground fabric and two living grass mulch treatments. So they compared the two. they were both it was hairy one of the living grass mulch treatments.

Kat (37:28.689)
Attracted to it, yeah.

Kat (37:47.592)
Okay.

Tiffany (37:56.275)
is called Harry Vetch.

Kat (37:59.237)
god. We're gonna get bleeped by YouTube.

Tiffany (38:04.712)
No. I was like, really? I don't know that one actually. So I'm like, that's amazing.

Kat (38:05.811)
Harry Vatch.

I've I've seen the word vetch before and it's always like, don't say that. My dad's gonna get mad at me for saying vetch. Yeah.

Tiffany (38:12.882)
Mhm. Yes. Yes. So good. and ryegrass, which is less scandalous. so the living grass mulch treatments, especially the hairy vetch treatment, significantly improved soil nutrients.

Kat (38:36.179)
I'm naming the Victorian child Harry Vet.

Tiffany (38:40.428)
It's a boy, for sure. Yeah, no, definitely a boy. Awesome. Maybe it's Harriet. Harriet bench. Yeah.

Kat (38:40.627)
Harry. Harry vetch, he's here. It was a girl at first, but now it's a boy. But

Kat (38:49.129)
They call her Harry, 'cause she's kind of

She's a child. They don't have gender. Children don't have gender. Wow.

Tiffany (38:54.144)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. so especially that one significantly improved soil nutrients by enhancing nitrogen related indicators. And it also promoted tree growth, increased fruit sugar content, sugar related components, and sugar acid ratio, and reduced the acid content of the soil.

Kat (39:15.653)
I'm just looking up Harry Vetch to see a picture of it.

Tiffany (39:18.38)
Yeah, I'm curio I didn't look it up actually. I have a like I feel like I know what it looks like. that's not at all what I thought it was gonna look like.

Kat (39:22.198)
it's pretty. It's like purple.

they kinda look like lupins.

Tiffany (39:29.164)
Yeah, or like kind of ferny. that's so interesting.

Kat (39:33.543)
Yeah, they are kinda ferny. Okay. I'm gonna

Tiffany (39:35.55)
Vicia Villosa. Cool. I like it. It's ta I know, right? There you go. Harry Vetches, it's like Harry Potter name Harry Potter. And then

Kat (39:38.973)
That's its that's its Harry Potter name. I'm w

I'm sending that to

Kat (39:47.955)
Harry. Harry Potter. And then I'm I we I don't know if it it's local to hear or not, but anyway, okay.

Tiffany (39:54.839)
I don't know. yeah, it's technically considered a cover crop. But yeah, you'd have to check if it's invasive or not.

Kat (40:02.591)
I'm like, I'm gonna bring Harry Vetch to Texas

Tiffany (40:06.358)
Right. The Harry Vetch outbreak of twenty twenty six. People will be so confused.

Kat (40:09.087)
Yeah. Cat cat cox and her hairy vetch outbreak.

Tiffany (40:15.438)
The crazy thing is they still know by name which nurseries or farms brought things like the Hickory Blight or or kudzu. Yeah, like those are named in that book I'm reading. They know people's names. Imagine that being like your grandfather. You're like, fuck. Great.

Kat (40:23.017)
Kutsu or okay. really?

Kat (40:34.569)
Well, and like not having to do reparations for it. nobody's ever been like pro persecu pro well, I it you know, I guess it

Tiffany (40:38.092)
Right.

Kat (40:44.581)
What do you prosecute? But it's like

Tiffany (40:47.628)
Just ignorance, yeah. And yeah, it's gross. But yeah, that would be a horrible family to come from. No offense if anybody does.

Kat (40:48.732)
Yeah.

Kat (40:55.599)
I I know our listeners like, Well, that's offensive to me because it's my grandfather's job.

Tiffany (41:00.686)
James Cooper from

Kat (41:03.465)
I mean I think i most of it was good intentions, bad outcomes a lot of the time.

Tiffany (41:10.506)
Yeah, I don't know if it was good intentions necessarily well no. I think a lot of it was for show. Like ornamental stuff. People were like, Look at my pretty plant that I got from Asia. Mhm. Yeah.

Kat (41:14.591)
'Cause ever that's like Okay. That's very

Victorian England idealism, yeah.

Thoughtlessness. Yeah.

Tiffany (41:30.048)
Yeah. Yeah. But hey, here we are. This is what we're dealing with. So in summary, the living mulch, the hairy vetch, definitely improves soil quality way better than like a black cloth. So may not be surprising, but it's true. So they s they actually studied it to make sure.

Kat (41:44.593)
Wow. Okay.

Kat (41:49.907)
Well it yeah.

Kat (41:56.626)
Okay. That feels like one of those things where it's like, y yeah, the black cloth that blots out the sun and keeps water from getting in kills things? Funny. Like we wrapped a Victorian child in black wheat cloth or hairy vetch for two weeks and just you know, just to see what it's like, yeah, it it killed him. Yeah, okay.

Tiffany (42:02.254)
Yeah. Yes.

Tiffany (42:11.372)
Yeah.

Yeah. But I do appreciate that it's sort of like something to point to and be like, no, that actually the soil quality goes down. It's like obvious, but it's maybe not so obvious to everybody. It wasn't obvious to me when I first bought this stupid house, so

Kat (42:22.397)
Yeah, that's fair.

Kat (42:26.525)
Yeah. No, I yeah. No, and I you're just so desperate to keep the weeds under control. I'm gonna go tear up my stupid weed barrier tomorrow.

Tiffany (42:32.0)
Yeah, exactly.

No, no, you're good. You're good. You can just wait until you have a plan. I really do believe in like design first because Yeah. You can save money.

Kat (42:42.257)
A plan? I agree, yes. That's what I need 'cause I have just bought plants and put them out there and then been like, oops. Well now they're dead. Yeah.

Tiffany (42:51.114)
Mm. Yeah, and you can kinda like make them the right seasons, you can make them the right heights, because that makes a difference on how it looks. So if something's gonna grow to eight feet tall, you probably don't want it in front of your window, for example. So

Kat (42:57.715)
Yes.

Kat (43:10.235)
Well maybe my windows. I do live in a city. Please don't look at my windows. Yeah.

Tiffany (43:13.184)
well, true. Yeah, that could yeah, that's true, actually. But anyway. Okay, so is this something a normal person could do or afford? We ask this also most episodes. and I say yes since there are so many different options. So and I th I consider this kind of thing to be something you build up to. So you don't have to spend a thousand dollars.

Kat (43:19.337)
Okay.

Kat (43:39.898)
Right.

Tiffany (43:43.839)
at least every year, definitely not every year, even the first year. You can kinda like take it in pieces, build up as you go. but if you think about what you're saving over the long term of not having to do the hardwood mulch, I think you're gonna be saving some money. And you're also gonna be a lot happier.

Kat (44:01.469)
Yes, plant once and then mulch forever, right?

Tiffany (44:06.73)
Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly. So at first yes. Yeah. So at first you will need to use some sort of hardwood mulch or other mulch to keep your pollinator garden alive. So like year one, year two, year three. The breakdown is year one, you're gonna need to put like two inches of mulch on top of your bed and water a lot. Compost also helps. But if you're looking to keep it alive, those are really the three things that you need. A lot of water the first year.

Kat (44:09.907)
Rather than mulching every spring or whenever, yeah.

Kat (44:34.719)
Okay.

Tiffany (44:37.398)
S some hardwood mulch is ideal and compost. It doesn't have to be hardwood either, it can be pine needles or whatever. But yeah, just not frickin' rubber or whatever people use.

Kat (44:45.896)
Whatever, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. god. That's decorative. And in that yeah, that's

It's like sowing s yeah. It's like sowing salt into the earth to Yeah, it kills weeds, kills everything else too. Forever. Yeah. We just poured some motor oil on it, got rid of the weeds real quick. Yeah.

Tiffany (44:55.404)
And it like leeches. Yeah, it's gross.

Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Tiffany (45:07.478)
Yeah, that's bad. So then year two, you're gonna fill in the mulch where it's needed. So you will need a little bit of mulch. You'll need less though. And you'll water some, but less. Unless it's really dry, then you'll probably need to water. Yeah, but if you plant like drought resistant plants, you're gonna be surprised how well they hold up. year three

Kat (45:22.111)
Mm. I was like, Welcome to Texas. But yes.

Tiffany (45:35.011)
This can't be like our aloe where we never water it, but maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know drought resistant plants very well, so it's not gonna be never, but it's gonna be like not very often. Yeah. okay, year three, your plants become your living mulch. You don't worry about watering unless there's a drought, like a serious drought. Which is for me, I haven't watered anything yet. And it did rain a lot, but it hasn't rained in like two weeks and I haven't even thought about watering. Yeah.

Kat (45:37.555)
No

Kat (46:03.409)
Well

Tiffany (46:05.964)
If it doesn't rain for another week, I'll probably have to. But that's it. And then you don't mulch. You don't bur don't bother with that. You don't have to weed. You just sit back and enjoy.

Kat (46:16.989)
It's a dream.

Tiffany (46:17.262)
It is. It is. It's like magic, but not. It's just nature. okay, so if you're looking for this mulch, like I said, you can use what your neighbors have, maybe if they have like a bunch of grass clippings that they don't need and you don't have very many, you can use that. You if you do have to buy wood mulch, you can like I said, call around to tree services.

Or you can wait until it goes on sale for like two bucks a bag. I did that this year. 'cause I I don't mulch my one I'm talking about my one bed specifically. I have others that I'm still building out, but one thing that's very important, like I mentioned in the beginning, avoid dyed mulch.

Kat (46:54.398)
Right.

Kat (47:05.001)
Okay, yes, for sure. that stuff's so gross.

Tiffany (47:07.51)
And this is trickier than you would think because it's everywhere. Some of it's black, but some of it is dyed brown. And the way that you'll know 'cause sometimes you're looking at it and you're like, okay, brown mulch. That looks like not dyed, you know, looks brown. If it says year long color on the bag, or if it says color guard or those types of anything about color, it's dyed. And you might be able to I don't know if it has like ingredients, but there's

Kat (47:09.595)
No, it's everywhere.

Kat (47:15.303)
It's so wild.

Kat (47:23.922)
Right.

Kat (47:32.297)
Okay.

Tiffany (47:37.325)
Maybe some Yeah. Nutritional guide. The reason one of the reasons, aside from the fact that it's dyed, that you want to avoid this type of mulch is because I think from what I can gather is that it means that the wood is usually worse quality. So and it's probably not great for a garden. So sometimes, not always, but sometimes they'll use like pallets.

Kat (47:37.855)
Calorie counts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (47:56.331)
interesting.

Tiffany (48:05.942)
Which sometimes are pressure treated.

Kat (48:06.345)
Okay. Right. Yeah.

Tiffany (48:09.932)
Which you don't really want, especially not on like a vegetable garden, for God's sake. Yeah. If it's pressure treated, it's got crazy amounts of chemicals. Yeah. Like all sorts of shit. Like arsenic. All sorts of shit. So I think because this is where my brain goes is like because they can diet, they know that the quality doesn't have to be as good 'cause they can kinda cover it up. This isn't always true, but

Kat (48:12.977)
It's not wood anymore, yeah. It's got like it's probably got Yeah, like probably P Foss. Yeah.

Kat (48:24.253)
Yeah.

Kat (48:36.68)
Right.

Tiffany (48:38.978)
Cause a lot of them will say, like, no pallets used, no construction materials used. We're gonna get into that a little bit though. So from so gardening know-how kind of backs me up. They say most of the wood used in colored mulches recycled is recycled, which sounds good for the environment. The problem is that wood is being recycled from sources that can be filled with chemicals that are harmful. These wood mulches can end up containing

Kat (48:45.961)
Okay.

Tiffany (49:04.756)
contaminating soil, waterways, flora and fauna and are harmful to humans. So avoid dyed mulch. Also avoid cypress mulch, which is a big thing.

Kat (49:10.068)
Yikes.

Kat (49:17.317)
Wow. Okay, why?

Tiffany (49:19.682)
Because cypress trees in Florida are being over harvested.

Kat (49:24.364)
just for mulch. Huh

Tiffany (49:26.272)
Yeah. Well, I don't know. Th I'm sure other things too, but cypress trees are

Kat (49:32.243)
Right, 'cause like we said, mulch is usually a by product. So they're using the cypress trees for some lumber something. Okay.

Tiffany (49:35.042)
Right.

Tiffany (49:38.657)
Yeah, that's what my sourcing said. so I don't know. I mean maybe it is waste, but my sources said just to avoid that kind of mulch. So 'cause cypress trees are we used to have so many of them and yet here we are. I don't know much furniture that's made from cypress, do you?

Kat (49:48.947)
Okay.

Kat (50:00.859)
I haven't never seen Cypress as a furniture thing. I'm keep talking, I'm gonna look up what they use cypress wood for.

Tiffany (50:02.87)
Yeah.

Tiffany (50:07.072)
Yeah, I'm curious. and don't always buy into the responsibly sourced claims on some of the big brands. So that leads into this idea of responsibly sourced mulch. Leads into the final question we ask, which is does the earth-friendly message need to come back to Earth? And I would say yes on some of the big brands like Scott's. So Scott's specifically says responsibly sourced.

Kat (50:33.737)
Okay.

Tiffany (50:37.026)
They're not the only ones. of the bags say responsibly sourced. It like I said, it says there are no pallets or construction wood that is used in that mulch, and that's their definition. But it turns out there's actually a certification that they that they don't have that I can tell. I looked all over the pictures of their bags and I did not see it anywhere. And the brand Exactly.

Kat (50:54.643)
Dun dun dun.

Kat (51:03.101)
And they would be bragging about it if they had it. Yeah.

Tiffany (51:06.016)
Exactly. Because the organic ones are like very obvious. They're like it's organic, it's like certified. Mm-hmm. So the site Growing a Greener World says your garden, if you use the type of mulch that's not certified, your garden might be topped off with a nice thick layer of arsenic or chromated copper arsenate. Which is C C A for short.

Kat (51:09.651)
Like w have this sort of Yeah.

Kat (51:32.041)
Yum.

Kat (51:35.602)
Okay.

Tiffany (51:36.244)
Yeah. but luckily for us, in two thousand four, the Mulch and Soil Council, that thing that exists, also they developed a product certification program to help consumers identify mulches and soils. So apparently they also certify soil that comply with industry standards and contain no C C A treated wood.

Kat (51:44.721)
Yeah.

Kat (51:58.336)
But you have to n it's not outlawed by the federal government or something to sell it. You have to know that as a consumer. MRFR, okay.

Tiffany (52:05.238)
Like everything, yeah, of course.

Tiffany (52:12.024)
Like everything. In the United States specifically. Welcome to America.

Kat (52:16.883)
I mean there are levels acceptable levels of arsenic, I know.

But still it's With C C A what is C C A gonna immediately give you cancer? As like PFAs, we don't know, or PFOS, we don't know. Right.

Tiffany (52:22.868)
Yeah, and it's hard to say like

Tiffany (52:28.514)
I don't know, I didn't yeah. Probably not, yeah. But it's not ideal for sure. It's also not good for the earth to just like throw that shit all over every year. Fresh layer of that shit. Maybe that's why it smells. It's all that copper. Don't know. So the like I said, the Scots bags do not have this certification symbol. I was able to find one. It is hard to find.

Kat (52:35.815)
Right. Maybe Right.

Kat (52:47.572)
I don't know.

Tiffany (52:58.136)
Which is sad.

Kat (53:00.434)
Yeah.

Tiffany (53:01.192)
Even the one there was one that was like fancy and kind of expensive and it's called Back to the Roots. I didn't see the certification on that. And that looked fancy. And it looked like, for sure. You know, they had other wording like r responsibly source or whatever, but i if nobody's source root or certifying it, you're like, Well, I don't know. Is it?

Kat (53:11.401)
Well

I wonder.

Kat (53:25.443)
it's kinda like fair trade, right?

Tiffany (53:27.328)
Yes, very similar. Yep. so the brand that I did find that has the certification very clearly on its bag was called Timberline. And I've used them before actually, and I didn't it wasn't for this purpose. It was probably just the cheapest option at the time, but yeah, exactly. But for a two cubic foot bag, which is like a bigger bag than sort of your usually it's one point five.

Kat (53:30.793)
Tough call. Yeah.

Kat (53:38.642)
Okay.

Kat (53:45.318)
It was on sale, yeah.

Tiffany (53:56.215)
it's four dollars and twenty-eight cents currently as I record at Lowe's. so it's not like two dollars a bag, but it's not like ten dollars a bag. So yeah, yeah. so but as far as like the other claims about water conservation and adding nutrients back to the soil, whatever, like those c claims are all true. So those

Kat (54:00.274)
Right.

Kat (54:07.421)
Right. It's not your luxury mulch.

Kat (54:24.521)
Okay.

Tiffany (54:25.09)
Those marketing claims don't really need 'cause they do market that all over the place on like Scots and whatnot. Those are true, so that's fine. okay. Finally, last but not least, our granola rating.

Kat (54:28.485)
I'm sure.

Kat (54:39.145)
Pap Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (54:42.782)
Yeah. I was like, is it a bad thing? so we rate each product or thing that we talk about from one to five granolas. Soggy is a one. You don't want soggy granola. And then it goes mushy, chewy, crunchy, and break your tooth off. So I kind of split this in two because I felt like there's so much so many shitty mulches out there.

Kat (55:09.583)
Yeah. So they're all ones or twos, right?

Tiffany (55:12.372)
Yeah. I would say like hardwood mulch is gonna be like chewy. Three. Because there's so many shitty ones, but it is really good in general for your plants and for keeping things alive and for allowing you to have a pollinated garden and for all these things. Yes, yes. Yeah. But living mulch is break toothuff. Yeah.

Kat (55:18.057)
Okay.

Kat (55:30.951)
Especially in the first year, right? Yeah.

Kat (55:40.095)
Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (55:40.963)
Which I guess one kinda comes out of the other. So you kind of need one in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, totally. so like mulch mulch is good. We love mulch. We need mulch. But we don't need only mulch. We don't want suburbs full of just mulched piles.

Kat (55:43.615)
They're symbiotic.

They cohabitate, yeah.

Kat (55:58.642)
We love bulch.

Kat (56:03.038)
Yeah.

Kat (56:08.319)
Color black mulch, yes. We need some hairy vetch

Tiffany (56:12.48)
We need more hairy match.

Kat (56:14.559)
D'ye hear that, Harry? He nodded. Yeah. He's hanging out over by my vacuum cleaner over there, so

Tiffany (56:27.554)
my god, you're gonna sleep so well tonight. You're gonna have like you're yeah, it was like you're gonna have like sleep paralysis.

Kat (56:29.68)
Very vetch, yeah.

Watching me as I sleep. Scaring my dog.

Kat (56:39.643)
I definitely. yeah. I yeah, I do. I have that a lot, so

Tiffany (56:42.894)
gross. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, we had a ghost episode on our Patreon, which was pretty interesting actually. no. That's not good. I hope not.

Kat (56:48.797)
Yeah, sleep paralysis is I'm probably gonna get it held down by Harry Vetch in my sleep tonight.

Kat (56:57.671)
I could talk to him. I'd be like, Could you just handle the living mulch situation in my front yard? And he'll be like, Sure. He just needs a job.

Tiffany (57:04.81)
Yeah. He's like, I I am living mulch. All right, sweet. So that was all I had.

Kat (57:15.891)
It was a lot. I mean that was a ride. For mulch, you're like mulch. But yeah, it was like mulch.

Tiffany (57:18.814)
More than you would think, right? Yes. It's not mulch. It's mulch. Yeah, cool. So thank you for listening. Next week we are gonna have a little another little like wild ride episode where Yeah, I love that.

Kat (57:25.725)
It's much yeah.

Call.

Kat (57:39.183)
Yeah, I think it's gonna be about feelings. but yeah, about like we talked about the cheapest thing to garden a Y, but I think things have gotten more dire. So we're gonna talk about like return on investment in in vegetable gardening or food gardening. So

Tiffany (57:56.33)
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause we had a vegetable gardening episode and I feel like we kinda focused on year one, although I was gonna re listen and I forgot. But

Kat (58:07.079)
Yeah, it was mostly on we talked a little bit about it it was just like what should you grow now to lower your grocery bill? And now that grocery bills are even higher than they were then, it's like is it worth

Tiffany (58:15.392)
Yeah. Right.

Tiffany (58:20.192)
Yes, they are so much higher. When did we release that episode? Two years ago?

Kat (58:25.063)
A year I think a year and a half ago. 'Cause that was season eight.

Tiffany (58:26.912)
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Definitely much worse.

Kat (58:32.307)
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna talk about that too. So mm-hmm Buckle up, buttercup.

Tiffany (58:35.512)
Great. A lot of commiseration. All right. I'm excited.

I keep burping, I'm so sorry.

Kat (58:45.055)
I'm drinking wine and that makes me say the silliest things apparently. I'm not even drunk, I'm just like happy. Which is good. Yeah. Okay.

Tiffany (58:52.808)
Yeah, I love it. I love it. okay, what should we ask folks to do?

Kat (58:58.835)
Folks, if you have it in your heart and you have five dollars a month, join our Patreon 'cause that's where most of our feelings end up and we need to record an episode soon. But it yeah. Huh. Yeah.

Tiffany (59:12.224)
Yes, we do. But it's fun over there. And sometimes hard, but mostly fun. And commiserating. yeah, we do.

Kat (59:20.073)
Yeah, and we might send you a sticker. So patreon dot com slash gadgreening up my act. Yeah. All right, cool. See you next week. Bye Harry.

Tiffany (59:25.91)
Yes, cool. Okay. Bye.