Kat (00:01)
Hi Tiffany.

Tiffany (00:02)
Hello, you might hear Charley singing.

Kat (00:05)
I just started laughing because I was like, I hear her too, because I was just talking about how your child isn't that loud. And now I'm like, she is tonight though. Just to prove me wrong. ⁓ well, I'm just going to jump right in because this is our last episode of the season and it's St. Patrick's day. So yes, happy St. Patrick's day. This won't come out till way after, but I hope the luck of the Irish is with everyone. Something I'm not.

Tiffany (00:10)
Yeah, I know.

Just some kind of song. Yep.

Whoa, that's crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. Old news.

Kat (00:34)
like 2 % Irish or something. Anyway, so people who like the outdoors tend to be conservators. If you notice that, if you really like hiking and being outdoors, you tend to like appreciate the wilderness and want to keep it. Really interesting thing that happens is if you are a flamingly liberal person like myself and you meet people who like hunting, they end up, they tend to be.

conservationists also. Yeah, it's a thing we can all cross the aisle on is that, you know, we would like to keep these wilds wild. ⁓ Often, yeah, maybe the finer points of that. But overall, ⁓ people who like the outdoors tend to do that. So people who like to wear outdoor gear tend to have some environmental ideas. ⁓ Naturally, an outdoor

Tiffany (01:04)
I was just gonna say that, yeah.

the most part.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (01:31)
clothing or gear brand would probably tout their environmental conservation efforts and hopefully live up to them.

Like I said, naturally an outdoor clothing or gear brand would probably tout their environmental conservation efforts and hopefully live up to them. Enter Fjallraven, a Swedish outdoor gear company whose name literally means Arctic Fox or Mountain Fox.

Tiffany (01:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

that's why their logo has a font, okay.

Kat (01:55)
It's

a fox. Yep. They claim to champion durability, adaptability, and respect for nature, which also means sustainability, right? And they're Swedish, which is another, you know, they tend to be pretty eco-conscious. So do their claims hold up?

Tiffany (02:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (02:13)
Pack up your tent and let's head outdoors this week. Find out. Welcome to Greening Up My Act

Tiffany (02:34)
Sweet. I'm excited.

Kat (02:35)
All right. So yeah,

I, I, I will see. I did this research kind of quickly. ⁓ I, I, I usually start and just go right in my sources, but I think you've been saying you've been doing the who are we? So let's who are we first. So Tiffany, who are we?

Tiffany (02:40)
No. Okay.

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier today.

And we always say, first off, we're marketing people, but we're also normal people. So we have like both an eye for branding and what, you know, sort of the fluffy nonsense that people, brands sometimes use. But also we're normal people, but we've also, I realize we're like, we both have spent years and years and years honing our research skills. So that's like another part of who we are is that we know how to research.

Kat (03:20)
That's true too.

Tiffany (03:26)
really complicated convoluted topics. And so that's sort of another reason why we're interested in this sort of stuff.

Kat (03:31)
Yeah. I mean,

that's kind of like my main point when I apply for work is that I'm very good at taking complex ideas and distilling them into legible layman's terms.

Tiffany (03:44)
Yes. Yeah, that's

like a line on my resume. Yes.

Kat (03:47)
Yeah, exactly. And it's,

you know, not, I'm not saying that like, oh, I totally understand rocket science and like that has come up, like the chemistry and stuff where sometimes we're just like, I don't know. We're also very capable of admitting when we don't know, you know, so, and we're a game for corrections. So yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (03:55)
Right. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. So that's who we are. We're just, you know, muddling

through this whole green hooey nonsense and trying to figure out what matters.

Kat (04:13)
100%.

Yeah. And we do fall for marketing sometimes too. Like, you know, when you're in a hurry and you're just like, what's the best option I have for this? Okay. That one works. And then sometimes later you realize not.

Tiffany (04:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yep. Or the, partner.

Kat (04:28)
Yes. Yes.

Tiffany (04:29)
Joe

ordered compostable doggy bags. Wilfera cats. But yeah, and I'm like, it's fine. It is what it is. I'm like, if you listen to this podcast, you would know. Yes, exactly.

Kat (04:34)
and you're like, ⁓ yeah.

Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. Way to tell me you don't participate in my creative endeavors, friend. But yeah, Sean

was shopping for laundry detergent because he likes the laundry detergent that smells. And I'm like, well, maybe we could use the Sandalwood and Jasmine from Dr. Bronner's. But I don't think that's a strong enough scent for him. He likes the scents. And I'm like, cancer! But he's like, they have dryer balls. And I was like, we don't need dryer balls. We have dryer balls. He's like, you're missing two.

and they're old. I'm like, they're not unraveling. We don't need no dress.

Tiffany (05:11)
Yes, my god. You don't need all five. Five is extreme. only have something I bought that I've had all five in the dryer at once. That never happens. Yeah, in a sleeve somewhere.

Kat (05:13)
So no.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're somewhere. There's probably, yeah.

Yeah. Some pair of pants I haven't worn in two years and I'm going to donate it and somebody's going to get a dryer ball and be like, what is this? so anyway, here's our sources. the Fjallraven US online store, ⁓ the Fjallraven sustainability page, Reddit, Wirecutter from New York times.

Tiffany (05:28)
Yeah. Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ okay.

Kat (05:46)
⁓ commons and good on you. So those are both, those last two are kind of distillers of like, and I think they're out of date is the problem. don't think they update them that often, but they kind of distill like sustainability claims on, companies. So they're a good resource. So first question, what is Fjallraven? And for the first half of this research, I included the umlauts over the A's. I quit doing that. It's too much.

Tiffany (05:49)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh-huh. That's impressive. Yeah.

And it is pronounced Fjallraven because I always say Fjallraven because I'm American.

Kat (06:16)
typing. Fjallraven. Yeah, or

it's spelled fagal, fagal raven. So yeah, but when you see it, it's Fjallraven. So it's an outdoor gear company that was founded in 1960 by Ake Norden. And I'm going to butcher all the Swedish terms. I'm sorry, you guys. He started the company in his basement to solve the problems that he encountered in the great outdoors.

Tiffany (06:25)
Yeah, okay, now I know.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

What years did you say? Okay.

Kat (06:46)
Most 1960 he founded it.

So the AI, when it came back to me, it was like he started it when he was 14. I don't, he didn't start it when he was 14. I'm pretty sure when he was 14, he hated the ⁓ long distance backpacks that were just too heavy and uncomfortable. And so he designed one with like a wooden frame. So mostly Fjallraven is known for their backpacks.

Tiffany (07:05)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (07:16)
That's kind of, and eventually, well, he invented the aluminum frame backpack. He did. Yeah. So that's a mountaineer's dream, right? More lightweight, more stability, more distribution and ventilation. That's, he focused on making like, you can go further with less effort. So, ⁓ they are nowadays most well known for their iconic Kanken backpack.

Tiffany (07:22)
He did? I had no idea.

Whoa.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

I think I know which one you mean. It's got the handles. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Kat (07:48)
Yeah, it was developed in 19- yeah, it's got handles. It's super simple. There's like a front pocket and a main pocket. And

it's, since it was developed for school children, it's smaller. So it's not like a giant day pack kind of thing, but they developed that in 1978 and Swedish school children and no fuss jetsetters from around the world use it to this day.

Tiffany (07:58)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, I didn't realize it's been around for that long. That's awesome.

Kat (08:13)
Yeah,

if you went to prep school like I did, at least one world traveling 14 year old had one of these backpacks. You've seen them. It's a flex. I'm pretty sure my ex husband like coveted them. they also created like a super

Tiffany (08:20)
Mm-hmm.

It is.

Yeah.

Kat (08:33)
good lightweight down jacket. I think it's called the great outdoors like a puffer jacket. ⁓ And that's one of their mainstays as well. So they're known for that. Arctic jackets.

Tiffany (08:37)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I know them for their

jackets that are ⁓ waterproof. Yeah.

Kat (08:48)
Yeah.

Waterproof, lightweight, you know, and, for outdoor, outdoor gear, know, they, they champion, you know, durability, waterproof, ⁓ but also breathability, which is a really hard thing to kind of manage on both ends. So, they produce outdoor clothing, down jackets, outer shells, hiking pants, hiking shirts, outdoor hiking skirts, you know, if you've got to go that route, tights and socks.

Tiffany (08:58)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (09:18)
Saw t-shirts,

tank tops, they got a little bit of everything. ⁓ And now they are owned by Fenix Outdoor, F-E-N-I-X, which Ake Nordin also founded. I don't know how involved he is anymore, but he founded that company. And that's a conglomerate of a whole bunch of different kind of outdoor focused companies.

Tiffany (09:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Interesting. Okay.

Kat (09:37)
Okay, so what sustainability claims does Fjallraven make?

They start their sustainability page by claiming everything we do has an impact on the environment around us and the people and animals that inhabit it. Great start, right? They claim they're acutely aware of this and do everything to keep their environmental footprint as small as possible. And then their sustainability page just kind of devolves from there. It's the circular mess. Like you click on something and it opens a new page that it's like, but you kind of already, isn't that the same? I don't, I went back. It's all just like linking to itself and it's not.

Tiffany (09:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (10:11)
They don't really like, like in a lot of the other sites we've seen, they make like distinct claims. They're like, here's our production process works and here's how much water we've saved. And here's, you know, this was just kind of like, wee so I tried to I went through their website link by link by link and just kind of came up with their claims. So here we go. First, first of all, as materials.

Tiffany (10:17)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (10:37)
They say their materials that they use are created on nature's terms. Cute. Whenever possible, they use natural materials like wool, cotton, and down. And then when they can't do that, they draw on ideas from nature to make synthetics. Very Swedish sounding, isn't it? nature inspired this plastic, you know? Okay, because they focus on durability and usability,

Tiffany (10:42)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (11:05)
They prioritize long lasting materials that will keep you dry. So they divide their materials into four categories. They say excellent, which includes recycled wool, organic hemp, and Tencel T-E-N-C-E-L. Good, which includes recycled polyester, their G1000 eco material, and traceable wool. Then they have okay, which would include polyamide,

Tiffany (11:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (11:33)
cotton, regular cotton and metal buttons. And then unusable things they will not use, which includes anything with, ⁓ PFCs, pleurofluorocarbons, PVCs and write down what that was or like Angora wool, apparently is verboten Angora.

Tiffany (11:36)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Or I was going say or PFAS. I know they're like very anti PFAS.

Kat (11:52)
So to break down those materials, go ahead.

Yeah,

it's PFCs and PVCs are the one they, so those are the forever, they, yeah, I'll get into that. They're very anti forever chemicals. So that's what PFCs and PVCs are.

Tiffany (12:04)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ I didn't realize that for some reason.

Kat (12:11)
Yeah, I think they're specific. might. Yeah, they are a forever chemical with with those. So so then they talk about these materials specifically. So for wool, their sustainability focus on this is on animal rights mostly, or animal ethical treatment of animals, which I'll talk about later. But

Tiffany (12:17)
Okay.

Kat (12:34)
Wool is a natural and regenerating material if produced sustainably. So, okay. Then down feathers. They, they love their feathers. Uh, they claim their down is ethically produced and fully traceable, which again is an animal treatment claim. And I'll go into more of that below. And then another material that uses G 1000, which is the material they use the most. It's basically everything. Um, it's made 65 % polyester and 35 % cotton.

Tiffany (12:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Hmm. Okay.

Kat (13:05)
It is a densely woven thread that is coated with their wax, which they use to make it more waterproof. So they also have created an eco version of it that it's made from recycled polyester and organic cotton. So when you're going through their store, they can tell you which one's eco G1000 and which one's just regular G1000.

Tiffany (13:12)
Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, that's interesting.

Kat (13:32)
So

And then they have another material called EcoShell, which is made from recycled polyester and PFC-free waterproofing. Impregnation, they call it. ⁓ So again, the PFCs are perfluorocarbons. And those are what most outdoor gear, businesses in the outdoor industry

Tiffany (13:44)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (13:57)
outdoor gear industry use to waterproof, but those are the forever chemicals that they refuse to use. ⁓ and then there's one called vinyl on F, which is a synthetic fiber they use to make their backpacks, including the Kanken They don't explain on their site how it's made, but a quick Google search said it's made from polyvinyl alcohol derived from things like coal or limestone. So that kind of set a little.

Tiffany (14:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Kat (14:26)
thing off in my brain. ⁓ Tencel or Lyocell, this one, use Tencel as the brand name is made from cellulose. So that's eucalyptus or beech tree pulp. So same way that, you know, the bamboo fiber that we talk about, it's a closed loop production system. So they use trees from certified sustainable plantations and they have a 99.5 recycled chemical rate. So they keep all their chemicals in the factory and not getting into the water system.

Tiffany (14:39)
Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, that's the big thing because

I remember when we researched bamboo fabric, that was like a huge problem when the factories, because I got those like random bamboo, unpaper towels. Yeah. And that was like one of our early episodes. And we were like, bamboo, you let us down. But yeah, the chemicals, yeah, the chemicals leaching was a big problem. So that's good that they

Kat (14:59)
Yes.

paper towels. Yeah.

Yeah, it sounds so natural. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Tencel It is. Yeah. Um, as a, as a brand. So Tencel is a brand of Lyocell. Yeah. And then another material called Coriolan, which is made from 94 % recycled polyamide and 6 % aramid. I didn't look up what those were. I'm sorry, but it's a reinforcement material for their jackets and trousers. Um,

Tiffany (15:21)
That must be why tensile is considered better. Okay.

Right. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (15:44)
So I did see that they said polyamide was made from yarn scraps, offcuts, and second quality fabrics. So there's some recycling going on.

Tiffany (15:50)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (15:54)
Okay, their second sustainability claim is around production. So the cornerstone of their sustainable production is collaboration. Basically, they talk to their partners a lot. They have a code of conduct that they have established that all of their partners have to sign. And that lays out how they will do business. And it covers human rights, animal welfare, environmental protection, sustainable development, and anti-corruption.

Tiffany (16:21)
Well.

Kat (16:22)
So if you're in America, that last one, sounds pretty foreign to me, but they have a clause in their code of conduct. And if you work with them, you have to sign it. So yeah, that's kind of cool. ⁓ they ensure all their suppliers live by this code and they include third party audits in that. So that's pretty cool. ⁓ they're also part of a group called Cascale It's an industry wide collaboration group that shares practices so they can, you know,

Tiffany (16:29)
Whoa.

That's kind of cool.

Kat (16:51)
see what other teams are doing for sustainability and try to adopt those and then share theirs as well. And they're part of the Fair Labor Association to promote workers' rights and improving working conditions.

Tiffany (16:56)
cool.

nice. OK.

Kat (17:04)
And then the third sustainability claim I could get to was animal treatment. So they're committed to no animal cruelty, which is not up to PETA standards, I would say, because no animal cruelty would be like no animals at all. But, ⁓ they promise the three statements, no live plucking, no force feeding and no mules-ing, which should trigger something in your brain. Yes.

Tiffany (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

⁓ we... Yeah,

because we talked about it.

Kat (17:34)
Yeah, you covered muesling. Do you remember what the process of muesling was?

Tiffany (17:37)
I don't.

Kat (17:39)
It's like clipping the sheep in a way that makes them bleed, I believe, was like the... That was a problem we had with the wool dryer balls. I was, I should have told you at homework to re-explain what it was. But yeah, go listen to our dryer balls episode to learn about mulesling. It's pretty terrible. So yeah.

Tiffany (17:48)
Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd have to

refresh because it definitely like rang some bells, but my memory is completely shot right now, so.

Kat (18:09)
Yeah.

I

just remember that it was very inhumane. ⁓ but in conventional wool production, it's something you really have to look out for. So, ⁓ one of the biggest things they tout in their animal byproducts is traceability. So this means they know exactly where their animal materials, especially their down come from. They even have a down promise to this effect where they laid out, like we promise that are down.

Tiffany (18:15)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

Kat (18:42)
is never live plucked. Now I didn't look into what live plucking means, but I'm pretty sure it means they pluck the bird while it's still alive, which is torture. Yeah. I don't know if they're just like waiting for the bird to die of old age or, know, they, wait for the feathers to fall off themselves, you know, or if it's a slaughterhouse and, know, when the goose-

Tiffany (18:50)
Yeah, I think we can imagine.

I doubt it. Yeah. Right. Well, down is really,

down is interesting because I remember watching this video about this company that does, it's like so expensive and I don't think we talked about it, but I just stumbled upon it. they charged like a thousand dollars for a bedspread for a down bedspread, but they are.

but they're like 100 %

Kat (19:30)
birds give us their feathers.

Tiffany (19:32)
Yeah, I think so.

Kat (19:34)
Could you make

a bed from this? But I mean, think birds lose feathers pretty often. And so if you have.

Tiffany (19:40)
Maybe that is it actually. Maybe it was like, I think it was. It was collected from the nest because when they make the nests, then they fluff it up for their babies. And then somebody, I think that's what it was. And then somebody goes in and removes all the straw and the dirt and whatever. And so it's like, that's why it's so expensive. It was something like that, yeah. I don't think Fjallraven does that, but I don't know. Fjallraven.

Kat (19:56)
Yeah. Yeah. Which makes sense. Which nice. Yeah.

It's

possible. They did have a wool promise. That was the same kind of idea where like ethically traded sheep but they retracted it in January, 2025, when PETA revealed that their supplier in New Zealand was not living up to the promise and the expectations. So there, if you click on their wool section right now, it's this letter explaining like we have

Tiffany (20:22)
Whoa.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (20:30)
demanded that the supplier meet these, meet these demands for ethical wool production and until they do, we will not make you this wool promise. So yeah.

Tiffany (20:38)
Whoa, okay. Also

make you the product.

Kat (20:42)
I guess, but it's been more than two years. So or it's been more than a year and a quarter. So I don't know. Yeah. next up was their chemical guidelines or restricted substances. So basically this link is just a link to the Fenix outdoor chemical guidelines, which is 109 pages of a PDF. So they don't even explain it. They're just like, yeah, you can read this if you want to. You're nuts. But.

Tiffany (20:46)
huh.

Yeah.

Kat (21:11)
⁓ that document was from 2024 as well, but it outlines how their suppliers have to document which chemicals are used in which products and which ones they won't use. And it's, you know, it's quite a list. So I guess in full transparency, they just put it up there and they're like, here you go. And if you want to be a chemist and read about it, you can, or a manufacturer.

Tiffany (21:24)
you

Mm-hmm.

Kat (21:36)
But, ⁓ then I said the next one they had on their website was design.

So they claim to have a sustainable design philosophy with seven guiding principles. Are you ready? Designed with you in mind, function and ease of use, simplicity, low material impact, material longevity and efficiency, emotional longevity, recyclability.

Tiffany (21:46)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Kat (22:08)
Why change a good thing and tried and tested? Now, what's funny is this is nine principles when they said there were seven, but who's counting? And I have to explain emotional longevity is basically timelessness. So they were saying, yeah, an item can't be, it doesn't matter if it's durable, if it's gonna look out a season next week. So, yes, so.

Tiffany (22:26)
that's what I thought, okay.

my god, that's exactly what we were just talking about. Ugh,

I love that.

Kat (22:37)
Their

stuff has looked the same since 1978, basically. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ also recyclability is also something they're working on. So they, they're trying to use fewer materials in the production of each of their products so that it's easier to recycle them in the future. Right. Cause that's the, the issue that we keep coming across is when you go to recycle your jeans, if they have any elastic in them, you know,

Tiffany (22:39)
man, I love that.

Yeah. Okay.

Mmm, mm-hmm.

Kat (23:06)
or any stretch material is a mix of cotton and, you know, again, plastics. And so it makes it really hard to recycle it.

Tiffany (23:13)
Yeah.

Kat (23:15)
I was also talking to my friend who is a seamstress and she was saying that the reason jeans wear out now is because that elastic wears out faster than cotton. So that's why you get holes in your jeans and stuff.

Tiffany (23:25)
Interesting.

my gosh, it makes so much sense.

Kat (23:32)
And

that's why like really high quality jeans that are like tailored to your body rather than with stretch last so much longer. Like original Levi's rather than new Levi's and things like that. cause it doesn't mean when you think about it, when you wash plastic clothing, you know, it's stretch, you know, it loses its shape. does, I just, was like, duh. Yeah.

Tiffany (23:40)
Whoa.

Oh my god. That is...

Yes.

Yeah,

it does make sense. then plastic is just so much... Plastic fiber is just so much less dur- I mean, it just makes sense that it would be... Yeah, exactly. That is so fascinating and also infuriating. It's funny because I joke with Joe all the time that he has razor knees because he always has holes in his knees. And I'm like, these are new pants. What's going on? But I'm trying to think. I should check if they have elastic in them or what.

Kat (24:02)
It's just fragile. Yeah. So I was like, okay, yeah.

It is.

Yeah, he just breaks through.

Yeah, see

if they have any stretch. I mean, if you can get them higher quality, 100 % cotton something, you know.

Tiffany (24:31)
Yeah,

he's bought like raw denim before, even though it's got holes, but it took longer for sure. Yes, yeah, it's not like.

Kat (24:37)
Yeah, OK. Well, I mean, it's not like invincible, obviously. But

yeah, like time it. know, well, this only took two weeks rather than, you this one took six months. Good job.

Tiffany (24:44)
Yeah, yeah,

I should. Let's keep it chart. That's really interesting, yeah.

Kat (24:49)
So I thought that was,

yeah.

Next up is they had care and repair. So ⁓ I'm almost done.

Tiffany (24:58)
Okay, should we take a break?

Okay. Man, was like hoping I'd finally remind you.

Kat (25:01)
And then we'll take a break. Yes. Good call though. Yes.

Yeah. I was, I, I have it programmed in here, but yeah. so care and repair I thought was going to be talking about the durability of their clothing, but it's basically they want everything you buy to really last forever. So they've got a whole list of ways to care for every item on your fault. Fjallraven list, like how to wash the wool. I mean, it's like fifth, 20 links like

Tiffany (25:23)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (25:30)
What we recommend for your jackets is you spot wash it. You know, if you must hand wash it, if you must machine wash it, do it this way. Their leather, everything they have, how to care for it, how to apply the Greenland wax that they use to, you know, so you don't have to use Scotchgard and how to store stuff, you know, like your down jacket. So it's not all flat when you get it out. So that was kind of cool. And then

Tiffany (25:38)
Okay.

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

That is cool.

Kat (25:57)
last link is to their Arctic Fox initiative.

Tiffany (26:00)
Okay.

Kat (26:00)
So this is the kind of tree planting section, but it's not tree planting. This was founded in 2019 as a collaboration between Fjallraven and you. So the Arctic fox isn't just the symbol and the namesake of Fjallraven. It's also an endangered species that they care very deeply about. So this, they started this program as a tool to support projects in the area of environmental protection and societal development and diversity. Basically.

Tiffany (26:04)
Okay, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (26:31)
They have certain items that if you buy them, a percentage of the sales goes towards the Arctic Fox Institute. And then that money goes to an initiative that the Arctic Fox Institute has decided is worthy. ⁓

Tiffany (26:47)
Wait, the Arctic Fox Institute isn't saving Arctic foxes?

Kat (26:51)
Well, that's their first initiative. Surprise was saving the Arctic Fox project from Stockholm University.

Tiffany (26:53)
Okay.

Okay, I was like, huh? Okay. I thought it was gonna be something totally different. Okay.

Kat (27:01)
And then, no, well then

they don't list any other initiatives. So I don't know if it's still the Save the Arctic Fox Institute, which I guess they're like, well, it's not done yet. So we're just going to keep doing that. It has been seven years, but.

Tiffany (27:12)
Okay.

Well, yeah, okay.

Kat (27:17)
So, but I think still if you buy items marked with save the Arctic Fox or what, know, the Arctic Fox Institute, you probably pay an extra $5 and it goes towards that.

Tiffany (27:26)
Okay. Interesting.

Kat (27:27)
So,

yeah. And then I had some other sustainability stuff that I just gleaned from them. They have a global sustainability director on staff.

Tiffany (27:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (27:39)
They also have a link to their parent company's 2024 CSR report. the Fenix outdoor 2024 CSR report, which actually just goes to the Fenix outdoor sustainability page, which I was like, it's not there. guess Fenix outdoor has updated, I guess, but not them. ⁓ and then they have a pre-loved, ⁓ site. So that's where you can buy or sell previously owned Fjallraven gear.

Tiffany (27:44)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, Joe's gotten a pair of pants from there.

Kat (28:08)
Yeah. So, okay. Those are, those are their sustainability initiatives. And now we can take a break.

Tiffany (28:15)
Okay, alright.

Kat (28:31)
Welcome back. hope that was restorative for you. Yeah, yeah. Did you save an Arctic fox? Yeah, it's hard. I'm glad. There you go.

Tiffany (28:33)
Sure, sure.

I tried. I did on Minecraft.

Sorry.

Kat (28:45)
perfect. I love it. Okay, so our next question that we ask is do these sustainability claims hold up? So I'm just gonna distill their sustainability claims that were cyclical and cyclical and into my own basic ideas here to kind of dig into it. So number one, durability. That's first. That's what they advertise. Their biggest sustainability claim is if you buy one of our backpacks, you're going to use it for the rest of your life. And an existing backpack

Tiffany (28:58)
Yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (29:14)
is always better than a new one, right? This holds up for them, for sure. So that Wirecutter article I read, she's talking about like, the Kanken backpack is flawed, but I'll never let it go. Yeah, it's a simple, simple backpack designed in 1978. There's like no padding. You can't put your laptop in it. The straps aren't comfortable. She's replaced the straps on it, you know, but she's had it for seven years. And yeah, I think she just...

Tiffany (29:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

She's replaced the straps on it? How'd she do that?

Kat (29:43)
hired someone to put padded straps on rather than just like this. Yeah. but, you know, and she was saying everyone she's ever met from Sweden is still using their backpack from grade school. You know, they last, they do. And they're pretty waterproof. she said, you know, you, you can't soak it, but one of the things they claim is that the fiber that they use to make the cock and buck conk, I said cock and it's Kanken.

Tiffany (29:44)
⁓ neat.

I see, okay, I get it, yeah.

Okay.

Kat (30:11)
The Kanken backpack ⁓ expands when it gets wet, which makes it even more waterproof, which is cool. So, and then, you know, I went on Reddit to be like, okay, what about other stuff? And it appears to be the resounding truth. Like somebody was like the pants I bought seven years ago and use every weekend. They just still look new. Like they'll fade a little, but they are, they're going to stand up the test of time. So durability. Yes. If you buy.

Tiffany (30:17)
Okay.

Well...

Okay.

Kat (30:41)
If Fjall raven product, you can pass it down to your kids' Number two, with their materials. Okay. Now generally their claims about sustainable materials are kind of mixed. So good on you said they liked that they use lower impact materials like organic cotton and recycled stuff, but they agreed that they aren't particularly transparent about the breakdown of which materials are used where. Like most brands and it's probably complicated.

Tiffany (30:52)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ okay, like most brands.

Kat (31:10)
And maybe their sustainability director is really busy chasing the Arctic fox. don't know, but they also don't minimize plastic packaging in their shipping and things. So that was a sticking point. And they do minimize fiber blends to maximize recyclability. So they do do that. They're using fewer materials to make their items so that they're easier to recycle. And they do use recycled or certified alternatives to conventional wool and down.

Tiffany (31:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

Kat (31:40)
And Commons, which is the other website I looked at, also noted that they use lower emissions materials like recycled wool, organic cotton, and Tencel. So I want a note about Tencel. It's definitely one of the better synthetics made because of that closed loop production. Sustainable sourcing from eucalyptus and beech trees from farms that just grow those specifically for that reason. They're not tearing down old forests. ⁓

Tiffany (31:47)
Okay.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (32:04)
maximize water efficiency and they have low chemical usage and recycle the chemicals rather than just letting them into the wild. So also Tencel is like, it's biodegradable. But I was like, yeah, in the same way compostable trash bags are. And as long as it's not mixed with other synthetics, yeah, Tencel is great for that. So they also noted that

Tiffany (32:09)
Okay.

Hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm, right.

Kat (32:27)
Fjallraven had stated 2025 goals for 75 % recycled polyamide, 100 % organic cotton, and 90 % recycled polyester. I did not see evidence of that on the Fjallraven website. So...

Tiffany (32:38)
Mmm.

Kat (32:41)
I guess they're trying, but we don't really know. They do talk about their Eco G100 or G1000 materials, and you can look and say when it's used in certain products. My next thing was in their production. So they do appear to have some better production ideologies, at least, than most fast fashion companies. They're at least aware of things. So they use 100 % renewable energy in their ⁓ on-site

Tiffany (32:54)
Okay.

Kat (33:11)
⁓ facility. So in Sweden they do, which is probably super easy in Sweden to do. It's probably required by law, you know, so like, okay. They also have that code of conduct that they do make supplier sign in and it is third party verified. ⁓ And they did set absolute targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in direct operations, although they didn't do so in the supply chain and production sites.

Tiffany (33:13)
Okay. Probably. Probably.

Okay, that's nice.

okay.

Kat (33:40)
which they don't report on either.

Tiffany (33:43)
Yeah,

and I think that was the big thing that podcast that I listened to. That's what ⁓ they were saying that like most of these brands haven't done anything supplier side wise.

Kat (33:52)
Well, and

it's kind of like, again, when you have factories in China or India.

It's really hard to police them. You know, they're subject to different laws. Again, that code of conduct ideally, but they can't be like this factory that's also probably producing materials for 40 other brands. Unless we all chip in together to make that happen. You know, the reason we're using these factories in China and India is because it's cheaper. So, you know, there's all kinds of balances that come around with that. So.

Tiffany (34:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, Fjallraven's not cheap though. I keep saying Fjallraven, I'm never gonna stop that. It's just in my head as, yeah.

Kat (34:29)
Well, yeah.

That's okay. You're American. It's fine. It's

kind of like when an American is talking and they go, and I had a croissant, you know, and you're just like, it's a croissant, bitch. It's fine. Say fjall raven. you know, like you're not, neither of us is trained in Swedish. So like, sorry.

Tiffany (34:39)
Yes.

Yeah, it's so true. Yeah.

I do know how to say, how are you? Who more do? Mm-hmm.

Kat (34:53)
How do you say, are you in Swedish? I mean,

it's kind of like Dutch when you listen to it you're like, that's kind of sounds like English. Yeah. Am I drunk or are you speaking Swedish? Hey, signs of a great relationship. You learned, you learned how are you rather than I hate your guts.

Tiffany (35:02)
It kind of makes sense, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I dated a Swedish guy for a little while and that's like the one thing I remember. Yeah, you know.

Yeah.

Kat (35:19)
It's always a good sign. It didn't end too terribly, I guess. Okay. My, my fourth thing that I came through with was followed through, right? That's a sustainability claim. So as we keep seeing their sustainability page doesn't appear to have been updated since Trump was elected, basically. Which I get, I think. and the newest update appearing in the wool promise page in January of 2025, right? Which was a reaction because PETA like exposed their New Zealand supplier for being evil, apparently.

Tiffany (35:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right. ⁓

Yeah.

Kat (35:50)
⁓

they don't appear to be prioritizing the reporting, right? Even if, even if they are following through on their promises, you know, I don't know if they have 75 % recycled polyamide or whatever. but the pre-loved shop appears to have options in it a lot. as opposed to somewhere there are like three things, like I think the, the, ⁓ leather handbags that you did a few weeks ago had like five items.

Tiffany (35:54)
Mm, mhm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was maybe like 10 or 15, but yeah, not very many. Wow.

Kat (36:20)
Yeah, it wasn't a lot. This has like 24 pages of things.

yeah. But like, where's the update on the Arctic Fox project stuff, you know, the initiative and how are they using that money? And why is their website so confusing?

Tiffany (36:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and it's kind of like if you're going to say our logo isn't just a logo. It's like you kind of need to,

Kat (36:39)
Yeah. Show me. Back it up.

So kind of like mixed bag with the sustainability claims. Again, you know, they aren't claiming they're going to save the world by planting 4,000 trees, right? Although the Arctic Fox initiative is kind like, we are going to save the world by saving the Arctic Fox, which is no, but you know, it's kind of, it's kind of that same thing where it's like, I mean, I guess that's not a carbon offset program.

Tiffany (36:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

do they say stuff like that?

Kat (37:09)
Right? They're not like, well, we are destroying the Arctic fox's habitat. So that's what we're doing. It's like, no, we really like the Arctic fox. It's a cool symbol. And so we know they're endangered. we're going to give money to that. Different than saying we will plant one tree for every suitcase you buy to offset the carbon used. So it's not quite guilt trippy. That's kind of a sweet idea, I guess, but.

Tiffany (37:09)
No.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (37:39)
Okay, our next question is, is this something a normal person could do or afford? And like you were saying, Fjallraven is expansive. It's expansive. Most outdoor clothing options are though, let's be honest. ⁓ Their prices are in line with other high quality outdoor focused sustainable brands like Patagonia. Like maybe a little bit higher. I looked, I was like, woman's down jacket and Patagonia's was like 550 and so was theirs.

Tiffany (37:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's true.

Kat (38:08)
They have some options that go up to $800.

Tiffany (38:08)
Okay.

Kat (38:13)
Yeah. Um, they're, they have t-shirts that are like 45. Their tank tops are some of their tank tops are 50 bucks. You know, some of their tights are $200, right? It ain't cheap. The Kanken backpack can go anywhere from 95 to $200. They have several different iterations of the Kanken bag, style bag. They also have like fanny packs and smaller purses and things. I had a, a boss bought me a Fjallraven.

Tiffany (38:13)
Ew.

Okay.

Jesus Christ. ⁓ my god.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (38:43)
bag that I used everyone I cannot find it for the life of me I do not know I do not know what I do but it was durable for sure like all of my other purses the zipper just like you know no not this this was this was my passport came in and out of that thing you know so ⁓ but like

Tiffany (38:52)
Mm-hmm.

You

Kat (39:04)
I see this again and again if you're going to buy the Kanken backpack for $200 today and use it for 30 years. That's like $7 a year, right? So I went through a bunch of backpacks when I was a kid. I don't know about you. I basically got a new one like every year in elementary school.

Tiffany (39:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, back then, and I hope it's changed, it was sort of like a status thing. So if you didn't have one, then you were like poor, which I always like, I don't think I ever did have a new one.

Kat (39:23)
Yes, it was for sure.

Yeah.

No, I think

I don't remember. do. I think it was also because we bought them cheap from Walmart and they'd fall apart by the end of kindergarten. know, ⁓ in high school, I think I had the same Jansport backpack my entire high school career. And I think I used it in college too. So.

Tiffany (39:38)
Yeah, yeah, same.

Okay, yeah, those can be okay. Those are more expensive.

We can never afford that. I feel bad I said you were poor, but I feel like I also was kind of poor, so I feel like I'm allowed to say that.

Kat (39:50)
Yeah, I think.

no.

I,

my family wasn't poor, but my parents both kind of grew up poor. so we like, they, they knew how to live poor. And so it's like, we shopped at Walmart and you know, and then like, think as we got older, my mom was like, and we went to REI and got the backpack that was a hundred dollars. And then I had it for six years, you know? Yeah. I think I finally gave that one away because I was like, I'm not going to school anymore. What do need this for? But, ⁓ like.

Tiffany (40:04)
Yeah, it trickles down.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's funny.

Kat (40:28)
If you buy 12, $30 backpacks for your kid over the life of their schooling, that's 360 bucks. So I'm guessing a $30 backpack is a wild thing to find these days. You know, a real school backpack that's 30 bucks is probably like, wow, that's, that's cheap. So, but also this is outdoor gear. like how many outer shells do you need? Like.

Tiffany (40:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right.

Kat (40:54)
Maybe if you're an influencer

Tiffany (40:55)
One.

Kat (40:56)
and you've got to have a different outfit that matches every time you go for it. But like I have one, I have a reflective jacket that I bought during the pandemic when everybody was walking around. It is a reflective rain jacket. was for biking, it's for running. I wear it in the winter to run. It is funny because it's like made with like recycled glass particles in the fabric. And so if you shine a light on it, it lights up. Like it's hanging in my living room right now. And if like,

Tiffany (40:58)
us.

my god.

Kat (41:23)
you know, you're using your flashlight in the living room and be like, who's standing? Oh, it's, it just, it is. It's bright. So anyway, but that zipper is like all busted up. You know, I've had that for six years now and the zipper's all busted. You know, I'm always stoked to have just one good outer shell for running or biking, right? If it was a Fjallraven, I'd probably use it for 15, 20 years. Yeah. Um, I

Tiffany (41:25)
It's a ghost.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yep, yeah,

have like, well, that's not for running, but I have like one ski coat in. It doesn't really look like a ski coat. I think it's really nice. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. But it is so warm and it's just so insanely, like windproof. I'm just always amazed every time I put it on.

Kat (41:49)
Yeah.

It's fashionable. ⁓ You don't look like the abominable snowman when you wear it. Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's the thing. like the outdoor expedition Fjallraven $800 down coat. I'm like, I can't even imagine needing this in Boston during a polar vortex. Like

Tiffany (42:20)
You bro? Yeah, I don't know though.

Kat (42:22)
I, when I went to Rhode Island two weekends ago, ⁓ I have a lands in down coat that I got for 20 bucks from a thrift store. That thing is cozy and it's good quality to lands in just good quality. But it's like, just need one of those, you know, and I'm going to have that for 20 years. Cause I'm only going to wear it twice a year. Like when we go to Canada for Christmas, you know, if we ever do that again. So.

Tiffany (42:33)
nice.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Kat (42:49)
Like, I think if you like the outdoors and you've got enough for an initial investment, yeah, you can feel good buying a Fjallraven for your occasional outdoor gear. You know, this, I don't think normal people are going to wear exclusively Fjallraven stuff. You're not like decked out in your daily yoga wear in Fjallraven. You know, this is for like hikers and outdoor people, you know, this, this isn't Vowari or Lululemon. This is like.

Tiffany (42:56)
Yeah.

bright.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kat (43:19)
You want a backpack that's gonna, and a tent that's gonna last you for your whole life. And so, yes they do. Yep. So it's probably worthwhile to splurge on a bag or a tent and pass it down to your kids' kids with Felrovan, I would say. But you only need one, you know, this is not, they have a lot of stuff on their website, but I don't feel like it's the same consumer driven, like Lululemon or, you know, you don't need like one in every color, unless you're crazy.

Tiffany (43:23)
Do they make tents? I didn't know that. OK.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Kat (43:47)
It is a status symbol, I think, to have one of those backpacks, though. Like I said, like

Tiffany (43:47)
Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Kat (43:51)
I'm a world traveler and I have the Konkan backpack and it's ugly, but it's durable. So.

Tiffany (43:53)
Yes?

Yeah, I loved that the woman

reviewing it had to replace her straps. That's the one thing that makes me hesitant to get it for Charlie, because I'm like, that's actually a really good idea, she's going to start kindergarten. ⁓ But I remember how heavy those books were in high school and even junior high, and your shoulders would fall off if your straps weren't comfortable. So I'm like, I don't know about that.

Kat (44:02)
Yeah, she's like, I was friggin' uncomfortable.

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah, no kidding. Well,

I think they have different versions now. So I think that's like the classic 1978 one, but like, it might be worth it to get her one of the little for elementary school. She'll just have it for eight years or whatever. And cause you're not, mean, please don't tell me they're sending kindergartners home with a locker full of books.

Tiffany (44:29)
Okay. Okay.

Yeah.

Oh no,

no. Why oh no? Why oh no? I can't imagine.

Kat (44:49)
When we were, ⁓ yeah, when we were

in middle school, my twin sister developed a thing where she just carried all of her books with her all the time because she didn't want to go to her locker between classes because she had like anxiety about how much time it would take. She has back problems. Yeah.

Tiffany (44:59)
huh.

Yeah, I knew people like that, yeah.

No, it's wild like they and now of course, we're freaking tablets, which is like a whole other thing. So God knows how many actual textbooks they'll have.

Kat (45:10)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I hope it's lighter for them, but they do have, okay, so they do have laptop bags there, the Kanken laptop version, because that was a thing that she said when she bought, the Wirecutter article said when she bought it, the padding for the back is like so flimsy that people think it's part of the packing materials and throw it away most of the time. And Fjall, it's removable. Fjallraven is like, you can use it as a seat cushion. And like, she's like, I have never considered using this as a seat cushion.

Tiffany (45:34)
⁓

Kat (45:42)
But you can, you know, get a different piece of foam in there, you know, but I, do have new ones that are, but yeah, that, that thing is going to last outlast the apocalypse. So yeah. So yeah, now our last section is our TLDR, our granola rating. So every week we rate the products or services on a scale of one to five granolas. The crunchier, the better. One is soggy, two is mushy, three is chewy.

Tiffany (45:47)
Okay.

That's funny.

Okay, that's good.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (46:11)
Four is crunchy and five is break your tooth off. And I think it will come as no surprise that I'm giving Q-Al-Ravin a three to 3.5. Basically our standard for this whole season. It's fucking durable. Yeah. They have an eye towards sustainability. I think possibly just because they're Swedish. It's kind of their job. Their production processes are less transparent and their reporting commitment is out of date.

Tiffany (46:29)
Yeah.

Kat (46:38)
But I would feel better buying stuff from them than a lot of other companies. ⁓ yeah, three, 3.5, I would say. It's a chewy to a crunchy. There's little bites of crunch in there.

Tiffany (46:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would say in terms of like outdoor gear, the PFAS really sets them apart. Not having.

Kat (46:55)
That's true. And I didn't give them

enough credit for that. That's a big deal. When you, we talked about PFAS and like Scotchgard is probably the biggest one that every household had. Like I remember Scotchgarding my tennis shoes when I was a kid. And yeah, it's amazing to break away from that. Definitely. Cause that's a lot of place where a lot of companies are like, well, but it's so easy to waterproof it with this. And you want waterproof. And it's like, yeah, but also you want the waterways to not.

Tiffany (47:02)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

huh. Yeah.

Kat (47:24)
grow three-headed frogs, so.

Tiffany (47:27)
Yeah, and the fact that they're doing it and proving that it's totally possible is pretty impressive. Yeah.

Kat (47:31)
Yeah, that's pretty trailblazy. So, ⁓

yeah, 3.5 might be viable for that. And you know, their recycling program, I mean, not that they're recycling the materials that they're using, but that they are providing a place where you can buy and sell their stuff for cheaper. I like that too. So yeah, but the lack of transparency just kind of knocks them down a notch.

Tiffany (47:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, I do too. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I feel you. Okay.

Kat (48:01)
So yeah, so

that's Fjallraven. And we wrap up our fashion season without ever once discussing a major fashion house, except as comparison for how much money things cost, I guess.

Tiffany (48:04)
Cool, thank you.

Yeah,

yeah. I don't know if we could have done like shit like would Chanel have made any sense sustainability wise.

Kat (48:19)
Yeah, I don't know. I wonder

if we should have done like an episode about like the sustainability of large fashion houses. Because I mean, our biggest issue is fast fashion. Right. But it sounded to me like when you were talking about the handbags, like it sounds like these fashion houses discard, they have wasteful processes.

Tiffany (48:26)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, that's what it sounds like. They just go through it. Do a run, next. Do a run, next. Do a run, next.

Kat (48:45)
Mm-hmm.

And, and also like haute couture versus, you know, ready to wear off the rack, you know, you can't have that many levels and maintain any kind of sustainability on a real scale. Right. So, I don't know. Anyway, I guess we just solved that problem ourselves. There we go. Done.

Tiffany (49:02)
Yeah.

Yeah, there

you go. We didn't even need to do that.

Kat (49:12)
So yeah, that's the end of our season. ⁓

Tiffany (49:16)
Yeah, I think we're gonna be back. We said sometime in June. So we're gonna take off a little time, kinda regroup. Cat needs to her bearings with her new job. I need to get my, ⁓ good. I need to get my bearings with my new job.

Kat (49:21)
Yeah.

Which I love. Yeah.

Yeah. So

I guess we could plug, ⁓ are finally going to be doing an episode on our Patreon, which we haven't done in a couple of months. ⁓ It is $5 to subscribe and we have a back catalog and those are personal conversations that are off topic from sustainability. So if you are not jiving with the talk about green hooey and granola ratings, like, and you want more cussing and possibly drinking, yeah, go check out our Patreon episodes. So.

Tiffany (49:44)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're gonna be talking about being laid off, because we both have experienced it. So if anybody is either nervous about getting laid off or has been through it or is going through it, you're not alone.

Kat (50:15)
Yeah, go look up. It's gonna be up by the time this episode comes out. So go check it out and commiserate with us.

Tiffany (50:23)
Yes, and hopefully we have some insights that are helpful.

Kat (50:26)
Yeah,

to make you feel better. At least you're not alone. Assure you, you are not alone.

Tiffany (50:29)
Yeah.

No. Sadly.

Kat (50:33)
hundreds of thousands of Americans are with you so yeah yeah so yeah thanks thanks for listening everyone to the season I hope you enjoyed it give us a five star rating or a like if you can that really helps us

Tiffany (50:37)
Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah,

yeah, please do. Yeah, and like we said, check out our Patreon. You can do a free trial, I think, for like a week. Is that what it is? then, yeah. And then we, helps us. So all right, see you soon. OK.

Kat (50:55)
Yeah. Yeah. You can probably listen to all our episodes in a week. No problem. Yeah. We'll see you in June. Yes, it does help us. Yeah.

Thanks. Good night.