Kat (00:01)
Hello Tiffany. How's it going? Yeah. We, we just did our half hour of chit chat before. And so we've cleared the air sort of. Well, clear. Yeah. Now we're, we're focusing in today on a new topic. so we did an episode last season talking about the joy of coffee and how climate change is affecting coffee production and possibly prices and

Tiffany (00:02)
Hello Kat. It's alright. Just okay.

Yeah, cleared the attention.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (00:29)
In sum, coffee is getting harder to grow because of the climate and thus more expensive and your daily brew might be at danger of going away. So we stumbled across a supposedly more eco-friendly way to get your daily jolt, whether coffee is going away or not. Mushroom coffee. Which sounds gross just saying it out loud for some reason, but it is touted by health gurus for supposed benefits to your wellbeing and your brain.

Tiffany (00:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (00:59)
So we did a bit of research to see if this trend based in an ancient traditional medicine is enough to make you switch from your daily cup of joe to this new trend. So that's the question tonight. Is mushroom coffee good? I did try it. So stay tuned. Welcome to greening up my act

Tiffany (01:13)
And you tried it.

Kat (01:37)
So as usual this season, I had a cast of 1,000 for our sources. Not as many as some of the topics we've talked about, but I really wanted to dig into the ecology of mushroom coffee production versus regular coffee production and all of the health benefits they talk about and what it tastes like and stuff like that. So I had Harvard Health Publishing, Healthline, Earthrise, which is a

type of mushroom coffee, which we've mentioned previously. Uh, medicine net, the Cleveland clinic wired had a review of the best mushroom coffee and then Penn state extension had this really from the Penn state university had this really long thing about the impact of the mushroom industry on the environment, which I like couldn't, I just skimmed it. So, but it was interesting stuff. And then food 52 had the hidden war time origins of mushroom coffee.

Tiffany (02:07)
Okay.

Interesting.

Kat (02:36)
So ⁓ I'll start off with the big question. What is mushroom coffee? OK, it's not coffee coffee, except sometimes it is coffee coffee. So there's several types of mushroom, quote unquote, coffee out there. And this is the same thing we had with milk. Can you call it coffee if it doesn't have coffee in it? The most burnt? Yeah. OK, it's not that. ⁓ At least not.

Tiffany (02:46)
Okay.

Ahhhh

Right. Right. Because I'm imagining just like a mushroom floating in hot water. But OK.

Kat (03:07)
Not the stuff that's sold as coffee, isn't that? So the most popular versions are medicinal mushrooms. So not the types you get in the proto-isle. These are Chinese medicine, usually traditional mushrooms. ⁓ Usually turned into a powder and then mixed with actual coffee, usually a type of instant coffee. So it still has coffee in it. Those are the most popular brands. It's a mushroom powder mixed in with your regular coffee.

Tiffany (03:09)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Interesting.

Kat (03:36)
And you can buy it like as a drink at most of the hip coffee shops these days. ⁓ Vegetarian and vegan places will often sell it. It's not like a mushroom tea, ⁓ which is I think the more traditional route for the medicinal. This is like they're actually trying to zhuzh it up by adding it to coffee usually. You can also buy it ⁓ like in instant coffee packets.

Tiffany (03:42)
Okay.

Kat (04:03)
as coffee blends or you can even have like the coffee pods that you can make at home. So, yeah.

Tiffany (04:11)
Interesting. ⁓

Yeah, so it's sort of like a vegan replacement for milk.

Kat (04:18)
No, it's just an additive basically to coffee. But there are pure mushroom coffees that don't contain any coffee at all. those would be, it would be more like cocoa powder kind of, you know, like ⁓ they're again dried and roasted mushrooms. Sometimes they're mixed with cacao or chicory so that they have more of a coffee flavor rather than just dirt. Because they do just taste like dirt, just for the record. These, these

Tiffany (04:20)
Okay. Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Kat (04:47)
Like pure mushroom powders basically don't contain caffeine. Because mushrooms don't have caffeine. So when they're mixed with coffee, they do. When they're not, no caffeine. Sometimes they mix the blend with matcha or tea. So it's like if you want to double down on the earthiness of matcha, you throw some mushroom powder in there. Or you could make a tea. Yeah.

Tiffany (04:54)
Right.

Right.

Interesting. Okay,

because in my mind it was like a replacement for coffee, but

Kat (05:15)
So I'll get into that with the history a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's what I thought too. So the most common mushrooms that they use in the mushroom blends for coffee are lion's mane, chaga, turkey tail, reishi, cordyceps, king trumpet, and maitake.

Tiffany (05:16)
Okay, alright.

Cordyceps? Isn't that from...

Kat (05:33)
It sounds like the stuff from The Last of Us. It's not the same, but I think it might be. It might be the same. Yeah, the fungus that takes over. Yeah, it's got medicinal properties. Yeah, this won't give you zombie powers, I think. But there's, think, 120 different medicinal mushrooms out there, and they really just make this. I think there are 20 that they might use for the coffee mixes, but those are the most popular ones.

Tiffany (05:36)
Yeah. Okay.

That's so funny, zombie coffee. ⁓

good.

Okay, I've heard of some of those.

Kat (06:03)
So

yeah, and they're not usually ones that you're going to like, again, you're not going to add them to your eggs. You're not going to buy them fresh at the grocery store and like throw them in your, generally speaking. So, okay, the history of mushroom coffee. People have been making mushroom brews for medicinal or culinary reasons for generations, especially in Asia. So it's super common.

Tiffany (06:15)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (06:33)
The medicinal benefits that these mushrooms are supposed to have are specifically come from traditional Chinese medicine. That's where the idea comes from. ⁓ But according to that article from Food52, folks in Finland started using mushrooms as a coffee alternative during World War II when they couldn't get coffee beans. So that's the founders of Four Stigmatic, which was the first major mushroom coffer and purveyors I could find, say they got the idea from.

Tiffany (06:53)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (07:02)
So it's about a 15, 20 year old concept to do mushroom coffee. Now I'm pretty sure they started out just doing roasted mushrooms to replace coffee and discovered that like nobody likes it. Like you have to be pretty hardcore to be like, yeah, I'm going to replace my caffeine jolt with mushroom coffee. So.

Tiffany (07:05)
Okay.

Yeah.

Great.

Kat (07:20)
So the biggest claim that they make with mushroom coffee is that it's better for you than regular coffee. And most of their claims include so they say that you can have better mental performance thanks to adaptogens. those are yes. Adaptogens are active ingredients in plants and especially mushrooms that may help your body deal with stress. Caveat may again.

Tiffany (07:35)
I've heard that in so many podcast ads. Adoptatrons, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (07:49)
⁓ they say that can reduce anxiety, can improve your physical health overall, which is like, okay, probably drinking any fluid that's not alcohol will improve your physical health, ⁓ better improved immunity, better sleep. You can boost your metabolism and burn fat and which means weight loss. They do claim some of them can prevent cancer. They say that they have anti-ulcer properties.

Tiffany (07:59)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (08:15)
can reduce your allergies, can reduce your cholesterol and slows the aging process due to antioxidants. Those are their like major health claims for these mushrooms. So I kind of went claim by claim and broke it down and said, this true or false? So the first, the first thing is that they do contain less caffeine. That's true. Even

Tiffany (08:22)
Damn.

Kat (08:38)
Okay, Healthline pointed out that mushroom coffee has less caffeine than regular coffee, even in the products that are mixed with coffee grounds or instant coffee, because you're basically getting half coffee and half mushroom powder. So you're cutting your caffeine consumption in half. The three brands that they listed in their article had about half to one third the amount of caffeine of a Folgers black silk dark roast, which had about 150 milligrams of coffee a cup. Yeah, yeah, so.

Tiffany (09:03)
delicious.

Kat (09:06)
You know, I think the strongest cup of coffee probably has about 200 milligrams of caffeine. So if you have that, you're getting less. And if you're drinking four cups a day, you know, yeah, sure. That will.

help you with a lot of things. So caffeine consumption is linked to increased anxiety and sleep issues, first and foremost. It would make sense that drinking less caffeine would help knock those problems down. Most people can consume about 400 milligrams of caffeine. So like three or four cups of regular coffee a day without really adverse side effects. ⁓ Caffeine can also cause heart palpitations, ⁓ stomach problems. Many mushroom coffee brands say the mushroom content always lowers

Tiffany (09:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (09:52)
also lowers the acidity content, which coffee is acidic. So that makes sense too. And that so reduces your chance of heartburn or stomach ulcers. So yes, less caffeine. That is one reason you might want to drink mushroom coffee. Okay. Other health claims for the other health claims. I just thought I'd go through what it's not like all the mushrooms do this. Each mushroom had possible benefits. So

Tiffany (10:02)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (10:21)
There are some studies is the thing. So turkey tail was found to possibly boost the immune system, fight nausea and vomiting in cancer patients. Myotarchy can regulate blood pressure, lower cholesterol, boost immunity, promote weight loss and may help again with the side effects of chemo. Chaga has a big antioxidant content, which we should probably do an episode on antioxidants someday because there's so many conflicting claims about it.

Tiffany (10:48)
Mmm.

Kat (10:48)
But

it could fight ulcers, it could support cancer therapies again, it might suppress immune activity that causes allergic reactions to some foods, and it might help with diabetes, maybe. Reishi might reduce blood cholesterol and reduce the risk of heart disease. Again, another one that's supportive for cancer therapies, might have anti-aging properties and may fight viral infections like flu and or help with asthma. Cordyceps our favorite.

is again supportive for cancer therapies and has been used to treat respiratory issues and coughs. Again, full of adaptogens to increase your energy is the claim. Lion's mane might reduce memory loss, prevent depression, increase brain function and might kill cancer cells.

Tiffany (11:36)
damn.

Kat (11:37)
So Harvard Health Publishing pointed out that a recent review showed medicinal mushrooms appear to have immune boosting properties and they can help regulate the metabolism. They may also slow down the aging process thanks to those antioxidants. It all sounds super promising. But when you dig into the studies, they're all test tubes or animal studies. So again, feeding animals large amounts of whatever the compound is. So it's not like they've done a study and found that

Tiffany (11:45)
Okay.

Kat (12:08)
all cancers react well to cordyceps or whatever, you know. ⁓ There aren't really any conclusive studies on how medicinal mushrooms affect human health, especially like the brain stuff. That's really hard to measure.

Tiffany (12:12)
Right.

Yeah, and how on earth do you measure anti-aging in rats?

Kat (12:24)
Right. Right. They get fewer gray hairs. I don't know. I mean, I guess it's weight gain, metabolism changes, all those things. But again, yeah, it's, they're inconclusive. They definitely haven't been done on mushroom coffee. These are just the mushrooms themselves. So you, it's possible you'd have to take huge amounts of the mushrooms on their own, just pop in mushroom pills or eating them, you know.

Tiffany (12:27)
I don't know.

Okay.

Kat (12:52)
to get any of the benefits, adding fungus to your coffee might not do any of the stuff Chinese herbal medicine mushrooms do because they're just the mushrooms because they've been processed and mixed with caffeine anyway. So that might negate the effects. They don't know. The Harvard article recommended adding regular mushrooms to your breakfast to add fiber and vitamins if you're looking for proven health benefits of mushrooms. So that was a very, very Harvard answer. So there are some possible health detriments of mushroom coffee.

Tiffany (13:00)
⁓

Yeah. Right.

Okay, sweet. Yeah.

Kat (13:22)
⁓ They say there might be increased risk of kidney stones, especially in chaga mushrooms due to high levels of oxalates. Some people are sensitive to adaptogens and may get nausea, diarrhea, stomach pain, or allergic reactions. People have reported increased bloating and gas from drinking mushroom coffee. And it can interact with medications for blood sugar, blood pressure, or blood thinners.

Tiffany (13:38)
wow.

Kat (13:49)
And because adaptogens can stimulate the immune system, they're not recommended for people with autoimmune disorders. On top of this, a lot of the brands out there add nootropics or probiotics to the powder. So it's not, you're not just getting the mushroom right in the mushroom coffee. Mushroom coffee is a big health store staple right now. So that means the gym bros are adding creatine to their blends or other workout stimulants. You know, you can probably get mushroom coffee with protein, bro.

Tiffany (13:55)
Okay.

Probably. Get anything with protein.

Kat (14:19)
It's true. But finally, because again, there aren't really good studies about how medicinal mushrooms and particularly mushroom coffee affect human health, no one is totally certain about dosage or exactly how they interact with other medicines. And since they're not regulated like medicine, the health claims aren't regulated. So like any supplement, I don't think they're like unsafe, but they're not necessarily better for you than coffee unless you're trying to cut the caffeine. And you got to be careful about all those added.

Tiffany (14:32)
Mmm.

right.

Okay.

Right, yeah. Interesting.

Kat (14:50)
stuff. Yeah. So

yeah, I mean, that was the thing is it's like, there's, once again, no science, you know, it's not like there was one study where patients with a certain kind of cancer were fed reishi mushrooms and, you know, all other tumors went away. Like, it's not magic. And again, I think a lot of the mental health benefits, especially like, I focus better. That's self-reported. Nobody's like,

gone in and measured brain activity to see, you know, how drinking a cup of mushroom coffee affects your brain activity, right? It's all kind of self-reported. So again, could be placebo, could be again, people who are already health conscious do these things. So self-selection is another issue. There's just, I don't think, you know,

Tiffany (15:27)
Right.

Yeah, could be placebo.

Kat (15:46)
None of the medical sites that I read were like, yeah, you should definitely do it. They're just like, you could try it if you want, you know, which is how my doctors are about.

Tiffany (15:53)
Yeah.

Kat (15:57)
what you call it

Well, I'm having a perimenopausal moment. The one where they stick needles in you. Acupuncture though. Yeah, you can try it. Probably not going to hurt you. So that's kind of the medical community's take on it. Now again, because mushroom coffee is not the pure medicinal mushrooms that you're getting even from Chinese medicine. Like it's

Tiffany (16:07)
⁓ acupuncture.

Kat (16:30)
I don't even know if they should be able to make the same claims. If you're mixing this with coffee, creating it into a powdered drink, and it's not like it's being prescribed to you. You pick the mushroom coffee based on whatever packaging it comes in, not like ⁓ a Chinese medicine doctor is like, you have this symptom, you should be drinking this mushroom coffee. That's not what's happening. So I don't know.

Tiffany (16:54)
Right.

Yeah.

Kat (17:01)
⁓ I said now would be a good time to take a break. So we can take a break and then we'll get back to is mushroom coffee better for the environment?

Tiffany (17:10)
⁓ I'm curious.

Kat (17:27)
Okay, so because the alternative medicine and eco-friendly communities tend to overlap quite a bit, ⁓ I think a lot of purveyors of mushroom coffee are gonna try and buy into this theory that mushroom coffee is better for the environment. so Earthrise, which does just pure mushrooms, no added coffee, they have

Tiffany (17:49)
Yeah.

Kat (17:56)
a big list of ecological benefits to mushroom coffee. Like, well, they don't exploit workers as much, which they had the, start the thing about like Starbucks is evil, you know, um, there's no deforestation in mushroom growth. Um, there's no chemical runoff, which, okay, less land loose land use lower water use. There's no monoculture. In fact, mushrooms improve the soil where they're grown and there's less energy use.

Tiffany (18:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (18:27)
Mushrooms grow in the dark, generally. mushrooms can be grown vertically, which takes less land than coffee, which are vines and they have to be cultivated. ⁓ Coffee is also a monoculture, so it's not grown in conjunction with other things and this can damage soil, especially over the long term. ⁓ Big coffee growing companies use pesticides, fertilizers, which create runoff, right? That's all true. But again.

Tiffany (18:28)
Right.

Kat (18:56)
There are caveats to this claim as always. Earth Rises from Australia. So if you're getting your coffee from Earth, your mushroom coffee, quote unquote, K-A-F-F-E-E, coffee, right? No, they call it coffee, but you're gonna be shipping the mushroom coffee a long way from Australia. So that kind of negates, unless you're in Australia, yeah. Most of the stuff you can get here in the US also has coffee in it already. So...

Tiffany (19:14)
yeah, that's true. Unless you're an Australia, but yeah.

Right.

Kat (19:27)
It's kind of shooting yourself in the foot if you're trying to do something better for the environment, right?

Tiffany (19:30)
Yeah, I was going to say I looked at also our listeners and we have some new people in London.

Kat (19:36)
yeah, I've seen we have a lot of UK. Yeah. So.

Tiffany (19:38)
Yeah, we should

start doing like we have measurements. We should also do like the metric system.

Kat (19:43)
⁓

okay. You want us to challenge ourselves? Yeah. Okay. We'll try to do.

Tiffany (19:48)
Only because

one of my favorite podcasts does that. And I think it's kind of nice. Because it's also, we're the only dumb-dumbs who use the non-metric system.

Kat (19:51)
OK. It's a very, I mean, it's I know. ⁓

My favorite line ever was there was some meeting and of world leaders, probably in the 60s or 70s. And they're like, so one of the Americans, there's only one country that insists on using the non-metric system. And whoever it was piped up and said, you know, the only ones who've been to the moon too, so.

I think it was in the 60s. But yeah, we're past that now. Everybody's been to the moon, okay? India has been to the moon. Let's stop. ⁓ Yeah. The metric system. I would love to say that I'm the kind of person who uses the metric system. I just kind of fumble with it when I travel abroad and just kind of, like, yeah, I can figure it out. I'm willing to, yeah.

Tiffany (20:27)
Yeah, yeah, that's funny.

Yeah, I mean, I don't use it. I'm just saying, you know, yeah, just

Google translates these things usually, so.

Kat (20:49)
Yeah, it does. ⁓ Okay, so another issue is that most of the stuff that you can buy in the United States is heavily packaged and producted and marketed. So you're getting multi-layered, it's not like you're getting, you know, maybe some of them do compostable earth bags, but likely not.

Tiffany (21:09)
And they would be compostable only at a facility. Yeah.

Kat (21:12)
Industrial level,

So mushroom production is likely better for the environment. But when you're mixing it with coffee, you're kind of negating all of that, I think. ⁓ So the Penn State Extension article that I got into talked about how large concentration of mushroom farms near urban areas can cause issues, like how to dispose of spent compost. They had a whole thing about, this wasn't just about mushroom coffee. It was about how mushroom growing.

Tiffany (21:24)
Right, yeah.

Kat (21:41)
They were taking it as like a defense of mushroom growing from like a kind of food production for the future standpoint. And the question they were asking, they weren't just positing what's wrong with mushroom growing. They were positing how to fix these issues, which are actually less of an issue than other. It's like, they're like, people don't like us and here's why we think they don't like us. And maybe we can fix these things. So the mushroom growers, yeah. They're like,

Tiffany (21:55)
Mm-hmm.

Wait, who the mushroom growers or what? ⁓ interesting,

okay.

Kat (22:10)
They

have a mushroom farm or a project working on mushroom farms and trying to figure out how to make it a more acceptable format, basically. So they talk about how mushroom compost stinks more because it becomes anaerobic and that it may also cause runoff, of course, ⁓ because of the way... And I wasn't sure if that was true for... I don't know.

Tiffany (22:14)
⁓

⁓ OK.

Hmm.

Wait, why does it become anaerobic?

Kat (22:39)
They said this was a possibility. I didn't get into the deep science of it.

Tiffany (22:41)
Okay, I wonder, yeah,

that's interesting. I wonder if it's got something to do with how they decompose or something. Yeah, that was one thing. If anybody is like, what the hell is anaerobic? That's one thing we learned is like, that's why composting is better because it uses oxygen. But if it doesn't use oxygen, then it creates methane. So.

Kat (22:53)
Yes.

Yeah, that's the question

is why is that happening? But it doesn't, I guess it, well, I didn't get too into it. Apparently also mushroom farmers need like poultry manure and second grade hay for fertilizer. So this is actually good for like, can, this was one of the solutions they were talking about was creating, there's just not enough, because people don't use horses every day anymore. There's just not enough.

horse manure to go around for things like mushroom farming, but they're like, there's a lot of chicken manure. And that's been an issue is where do you chicken farmers get rid of their manure? And they're like, well, we should start a partnership. So, and also they were saying that mushroom compost is better than regular compost because the mushrooms use some of the waste material to make the mushrooms, but leave nutrients so you can reuse the substrate. So mushrooms grow on regular compost, right? So you can, you can actually

Tiffany (23:23)
Hmm.

Okay.

Yeah, okay.

Right. Right.

Okay.

Kat (23:51)
use compost to grow mushrooms, you know? And then basically growing mushrooms is better for the soil throughout the whole process, was what, you know, and the mushroom compost leftovers don't appear to affect groundwater in deleterious ways the same way that other types of runoff can do or, or fertilizer. ⁓ apparently there are mushroom pesticides that are no longer regulated as stringently as they used to be. Cause I guess it's just not that big of a deal. They're more concerned with

Tiffany (23:53)
Okay, yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Okay.

Kat (24:20)
factory farming and other methods. So this has caused some issues with overuse or misuse of pesticides, which I found interesting. But they say because mushroom farming is best done in sealed mushroom houses, you don't need pesticides anyway. So.

Tiffany (24:26)
Hmm. Yeah.

Okay.

Which is so interesting because I remember mushrooms made like the top list of the organic shit that you should buy.

Kat (24:44)
Yeah. But I guess organic mushroom farming can be done in a closed room. So.

Tiffany (24:50)
Hmm. Okay. But

other people use pesticides anyway. I'm sure there's like slugs or something. Yeah.

Kat (24:55)
Yeah, yeah,

there, I think there's some kind of wasp that's kind of terrifying. But for the most part, mushroom farms are working to find environmental ways to dispose of or recycle waste and work with communities to help with other forms of compost waste like chicken manure or, you know, other compost. So mushroom farming does seem to be better for the environment, I will say. ⁓ but then if you, I mean, it's kind of like,

Tiffany (24:59)
Okay.

Yeah.

Kat (25:22)
And then you buy it in a plastic bag and it's like, what was I thinking? You know, like, okay.

Tiffany (25:28)
Right. Yeah, maybe it's apples to oranges too. Cause I mean, I guess if you're comparing it to coffee, I don't know.

Kat (25:35)
Yeah, like

one mushroom grown versus a pound, like a pound of mushrooms grown versus a pound of coffee grown, right? Like, yeah, it's probably better for the environment. But then if you mix them, you know, and also like these are medicinal mushrooms, not edible mushrooms. So that's different as well. So yeah. Okay. My next question was, does mushroom coffee scratch that coffee itch?

Tiffany (25:47)
Right. Yeah, yeah.

Right. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah, I'm curious.

Kat (26:04)
So

I saw on a Reddit post that I didn't quote from here, but people are like, what does mushroom coffee taste like? And he was like, I got to tell you a story about this one time I was deployed in Afghanistan and I had one packet of instant coffee. no, he was in Bosnia. He had one packet of instant coffee left and he had boiled the water and he was getting ready to put it in and he dropped the coffee on the ground and it spilled. And so he did what any good

Tiffany (26:24)
Mm.

Kat (26:34)
enlisted soldier who really needed a cup of coffee to do he scooped it up with the dirt and put it in his cup and drank it and he said that is what mushroom coffee tastes like.

And I was like, okay, that sounds about right. Yeah.

Tiffany (26:46)
That's awesome. That is so funny. ⁓

my god.

Kat (26:54)
So yeah, read Wired has a really good rundown of the best mushroom coffees. And their major complaints were that it has a dirty or dusty flavor or earthy. Sometimes it can taste sour. There's a silty residue from a lot of them. ⁓ Lacing on the rim of the cup. guess it gets on the, yeah, the powder sticks to the cup. ⁓ Tingling.

Tiffany (27:07)
Mm-hmm. Huh.

Okay.

like sticks.

Okay.

Kat (27:23)
is possible maybe you know from the mushrooms themselves or other additives they really hate the manosphere marketing

Tiffany (27:27)
Weird.

Oh my god. I haven't seen any of it, but I can imagine.

Kat (27:34)
yeah. And there's a lot of subscription based only pyramid scheme, like nonsense going on in mushroom coffee. So yeah, they also didn't like added spices used to cover up the flavor at a lot of the time. ⁓ low content caffeine content. If you're a true caffeine person, it is not going to work for you. ⁓ they all, know, again, tummy troubles sometimes due to added probiotics.

Tiffany (27:40)
Really?

Kat (28:00)
And the tools that are required, like frothers or handheld immersion blenders, they didn't like a lot of that. So they kind of ranked it on, how little do you need to go into all of this stuff, and how bad does it taste to get your mushroom coffee?

Tiffany (28:05)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (28:18)
Yeah, so yeah. yeah, and there it's a very snarky piece. It's worth reading. But I got on Google and tried to find mushroom coffee near me, which we had discussed. Like, it'll be like, you want to buy mushrooms? It's like, no, I want to try mushroom coffee specifically. ⁓ I couldn't find anywhere that sold just the mushroom powder. Basically, it was all listed as part of a latte or, you know. ⁓ But I walked to my local vegan coffee shop and had a Reishi mocha to give it a whirl.

Tiffany (28:18)
That's funny. I love that they ranked them.

Yeah, of course.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Kat (28:47)
So my experience, first the barista asked if I wanted to add espresso, which I didn't know it was an option not to. So I declined because I just wanted to try the mushrooms and she was like, are you sure? So she asked if I wanted to add a sweetener because it would just be mushroom powder and cacao. So that's what I was getting. And they, she said we use oat milk, which is their standard all milk. Cause again, it's a vegan cafe. They don't have whole milk. ⁓ and she said,

Tiffany (28:48)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (29:17)
She recommended warmer syrups like caramel, hazelnut, honey or maple. So I said, can I get a little caramel? You know, okay. So I watched her make it. took a scoop of the powder from the jar, poured in some hot water, used a frother, you know, one of those little... Then she steamed up the milk, poured it over, made a really nice little heart design, you know. Yeah. It obviously came pre-mixed with a cacao powder, but I'm not sure what the ratio was. I don't know how much cocoa I was getting, or cacao. I think it was raw cacao that has been...

Tiffany (29:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it was pretty.

Kat (29:46)
pulverized. Well, not raw, roasted. It wasn't like they were using Hershey's cocoa powder. Yeah. Okay, it didn't taste like coffee. I'll tell you that right off the bat. It was reminiscent of hot cocoa in an earthy kind of dirty way. It didn't have much flavor, probably because I said a little caramel. I texted Sean and said it was like dirt water with cocoa powder.

Tiffany (29:47)
Okay.

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it's ⁓ like a dirty version of the little packet. You know those packets of hot cocoa with the little marshmallow? Yeah, those taste like garbage. I used to love them and now I try them and I'm like, yeah, it just tastes awful.

Kat (30:21)
Yeah, with no sweeteners though. Yeah, but no sweeteners, no marshmallows. Yes, they're so sweet.

This is just like if you just, you took frothed up oat milk, like I do, when I make ⁓ golden milk, I just use turmeric. So it's not.

This had less flavor than Turmeric, I would say. But it's grainy because it's not a powder. It doesn't dissolve. And it's earthy. It tastes like a root. Or I said it kind of was like kava. Have you ever had kava? That was like Sean's and my first date. It's basically like a root brew. And it just tastes earthy. yeah. It was gritty, but not any more than when I make golden milk at home.

Tiffany (30:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh-uh. ⁓ No.

Okay. Okay. Interesting.

Kat (31:15)
Or like if you just add cinnamon, you know, if you, it's just kind of gritty. Yeah. It doesn't dissolve. It's not a powder. it didn't have a big, big bit of sludge at the bottom of the cup. So she apparently frothed it and it did leave little brown rings. Like when you drink a Guinness, but regular lattes do that too. So it wasn't offensive in that way. It wasn't like I was choking it down at the end. ⁓ I did. Yeah.

Tiffany (31:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's got kind of that, yeah.

Right.

Right, right.

Yeah. Okay. You finished it. Okay.

Kat (31:44)
So I didn't feel any effects except like I had a little heartburn which could have been from I had my regular latte earlier in the day. So I went home and took a nap. I didn't sleep great the night before anyway. So.

Tiffany (31:46)
Okay.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

You're feeling extra relaxed.

Kat (32:00)
I've been napping every day at the same time, so I don't think it affected me much. I kind of feel like if you're, for really scientific purposes, you'd have to incorporate it into your daily routine every day for like a month to notice. So also it clocked in at about $8 for like a 12 ounce cup. That is steep for me. Like I think you can get a 12 ounce regular latte for like $5.50 at most places.

Tiffany (32:12)
Yeah.

my lord.

Yeah,

Kat (32:28)
So, and they're like, we don't upcharge for

Tiffany (32:28)
that's insane.

Kat (32:30)
all milks, but yeah, it was pretty pricey. Well, they also don't accept tips. So that's another thing is like, this was, you know, my vegan commie.

place where they we don't do tipping. Yeah.

Tiffany (32:42)
Yeah, well hopefully you wrote

it off as a business expense. Nice, awesome.

Kat (32:47)
yeah, I put it on my business credit card and everything.

but yeah, so that leads me into my next question, which is how much does mushroom coffee cost? And it's a fuck ton. ⁓ and, and not just because of the marketing, think in general, because it's like, you can get cheap instant coffee and apparently instant coffee is better and better and better all the time. So my roommate was talking about it. It's like really good now. ⁓ it can cost twice what your regular beans cost for a 12 ounce bag.

Tiffany (32:56)
Yeah.

Kat (33:17)
So like a 30 serving bag, said would cost you up to $40, which is like a buck 33 a serving. And the upper end of a regular cup of coffee brewed at home is about 65 cents. And then you can like get fancy beans and add milk and flavorings. yeah, mushroom coffee is expensive and it costs even more at coffee shops. Surprise, surprise. So.

Tiffany (33:33)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dang.

Kat (33:40)
Should you make the switch? I wouldn't. It just feels super hyped and it's definitely like way more expensive than regular coffee, even as tariffs and climate change threaten to take it out of our daily rotation. So we're not there yet. You don't need to do mushroom coffee unless you want to. If you've got the scratch and you want to try it out, you're definitely not going to replace your caffeine buzz.

Tiffany (33:44)
you

Yeah, right. And it's also like, right,

that's the thing. It's like, it's not a replacement. It's a completely separate thing. It's not replacing your coffee.

Kat (34:12)
Well,

so that was the thing, like previous generations have always tried to like slightly burn other things to make coffee. Like ⁓ in the civil war, they roasted okra seeds and brewed it because it, they did like taste like coffee. There's chicory root, right? That's roasted barley is something. ⁓ Cafix is a brand that is like a roasted barley that's supposed to taste like coffee, but it has beets and figs.

Tiffany (34:19)
Yeah.

that's fascinating.

huh.

Fascinating.

Kat (34:40)
My grandfather,

when he tried to give up caffeine, he drank Postem, which is something that I think was produced when coffee was too expensive to get. And it's just like a roasted grain made by Post, General Post. And he would drink that instead of coffee. And it was kind of malty, you know, it's just that dark hot liquid. There's something about that. ⁓

Tiffany (34:53)
Whoa.

Interesting. huh. Yeah. I would

go decaf before I would go those routes, but I guess if you're looking at the environmental, yeah.

Kat (35:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah,

mean, you know, hot cocoa has less camp has like little to no caffeine if it has any caffeine. So if you just need a creamy dark beverage, you could try cocoa. There's tea, you know, and you can do dried herbs like mint leaves or other flowers to get a flavorful herbal tea with zero caffeine that you can grow right in your front lawn. So if you're looking to replace the caffeine with mushroom coffee, it's not going to work.

Tiffany (35:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, would, yeah, T would be.

Right.

Kat (35:40)
know, and I think the environmental things are kind of X'd out. okay, and also again, the purported health benefits, they just aren't proven. I know this always doesn't mean stuff doesn't work, but these coffees aren't even the same as traditional Chinese medicinal mushrooms. So you're kind of lying to yourself. It feels like someone has like co-opted ancient medicinal practices and repackaged it in a flashy overhyped expensive subscription package so you can brag about it to your CrossFit buddies. Like that's

Tiffany (35:50)
Ready.

Right.

Yeah.

That is... Yes!

That is what it seems like!

Kat (36:09)
I'm

on the mushroom coffee and it's like okay.

Tiffany (36:13)
my god, it's so true. Do you know the first, you said it was like 15 or 20 years ago that it became popular? Do you know the first people, were they CrossFitters?

Kat (36:15)
without even... mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I, well, I think they were... The first one I could found was ⁓ Four Stigmatic, which I think Wired said was like the worst one. no, they hated... There's one that I get advertising for every time I look it up and they're like, this was the worst. So...

Tiffany (36:32)
Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, there's one that was on the podcast circuit for a minute and I kept hearing about it.

Kat (36:45)
Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of hypey. I mean, if they work for you, go for the mushroom coffee additives. Like, I think the ritual can be nice of like frothing it and, ⁓ you gotta watch out for those added ingredients in flashy brands and you gotta watch out for your tummy or interactions with other meds. Like watch out. ⁓ I don't think it's going to kill you. And it might help you cut caffeine if you can't just do tea or do decaf or go cold turkey, you know.

Tiffany (36:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (37:15)
But again, the environmental impact isn't nothing, but you can also help your coffee's eco-impact by buying from small producers and certified growers. Brew at home, compost your coffee grounds. You know, these are all things you can do to kind of lower your impact of coffee or just drink less coffee, you know. But until we're in dire straits and we're roasting okra seeds to make flavored things that taste like burnt coffee, I don't think it's.

Tiffany (37:34)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (37:45)
It's not right. The time isn't there yet. We're not there yet.

Tiffany (37:48)
Yeah,

yeah, I can see that.

Kat (37:51)
Yeah, so that was mushroom coffee.

Tiffany (37:52)
All right.

All right. That's sort of what I expected. Well, a little bit. Well, no, but actually less. I really thought it was going to be like a replacement. So it's worse than I expected.

Kat (37:56)
Yeah, and maybe I went into it with a bunch of bias, but.

Yeah, me too. I,

I was kind of surprised at how it's just mixed with coffee. ⁓ I think that was my, cause I was like looking all over the internet for places that just serve mushroom coffee and nowhere does, cause it's not, you can't sell it basically like that as a coffee shop. I'm, I think I'm wondering if like the vegan grocery store has, you know, chaga mushrooms or something that you can just add to your own coffee at home.

Tiffany (38:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (38:34)
and not have to go through the wild subscription services or whatever.

Tiffany (38:34)
I'm sure, yeah.

Yeah, or like a natural food. Even like, yeah, some sort of like roots or some natural food market.

Kat (38:47)
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah.

Tiffany (38:49)
Yeah, interesting.

Cool. Well, thank you for experimenting. It's always fun to get real world analysis.

Kat (38:53)
Yeah, so... Yeah, sure.

Yeah, I mean, one cup you know, I didn't and I don't do CrossFit, so I don't know if it helps my gains, bro or whatever, but.

Tiffany (39:02)
Well, yeah. I mean...

Kat (39:10)
It just, it seems marketed and kind of unnecessary. If you just like coffee, drink coffee, you know.

Tiffany (39:15)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Cool.

Kat (39:19)
So yeah, so

yeah, I guess next week we're talking about meal planning, which is exciting.

Tiffany (39:24)
Yes, and I'm really excited

about this. I actually, it's funny because I asked Kat, I was like, can I switch it up and talk about meal planning? Because I was like, I've been doing it for a year and it's actually really awesome. And I want to sort of spread the word and give some advice because I have gone through so many different levels of it. So yeah, it's like.

Kat (39:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm excited

because it's a thing I get kind of stuck on. ⁓

Tiffany (39:51)
Yeah, I'm

curious about your experience if you've tried it. ⁓ So.

Kat (39:56)
Yeah.

Yeah. Cool. All right.

Tiffany (39:59)
Cool. All right.

Well, ⁓ go check us out on Patreon. Greeningupmyact.com. No, wait, Patreon.com slash Greeningupmyact. ⁓ Because, yeah, we did that really fun Halloween spooky episode. So even if this might be coming out after Halloween.

Kat (40:08)
Yeah, we have a new episode up. So, patreon.com. Yeah.

Yeah. So if you're, this is coming out,

think, well, yeah, but check it out. Yeah.

Tiffany (40:25)
Yeah, but either way, spooky seasons all year round.

Kat (40:28)
Yes. It's always spooky here.

Tiffany (40:30)
Cool. Thank you.

Kat (40:32)
All right, thank

you.