Kat (00:01)
Hi, Tiffany.

Tiffany (00:02)
Hi Kat.

Kat (00:04)
So, I've heard it a million times. Veganism is better. Period. Better for your health, better for the environment, better for your wallet. Most vegans have a reputation for gladly or even sourly telling you this repeatedly. ⁓ And they get a bad rap for being overzealous in their efforts to convert meat eaters.

Tiffany (00:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (00:31)
But are they right?

Tiffany (00:33)
Hmm.

Kat (00:36)
Let's dig in.

Tiffany (00:38)
fascinating.

Kat (00:39)
Welcome to greening up my act.

Tiffany (00:56)
Sweet, let's find out.

Kat (00:57)
So that

was, yeah, that was a short intro, I think, because we just spent the last 10 minutes gabbing and we didn't record it. So.

Tiffany (01:02)
Yeah,

about ⁓ smoking. Lots of shit. Yeah.

Kat (01:06)
Smoking and yeah, other things. Yeah,

we do that. I'm sorry, guys. It's not even a Patreon episode, but ⁓ Yeah, so I'll just get into my sources. I use the NIH three times studies from them. The Guardian, BBC, the American Institute for Cancer Research, and a blog that you sent me from a guy named Weston A. Price about a book called The China Study, which neither of us read, which is okay. But ⁓

Tiffany (01:19)
Okay.

Yeah.

Kat (01:35)
Yeah, I, I, maybe I should do a little more intro and be like, what, what have you, what thoughts swirl in your head or what is the algorithm told you about veganism? Like what are the rumors?

Tiffany (01:49)
well, it's hard because rumors versus like, know a lot of vegans, so.

Kat (01:53)
Yeah.

What do they say?

Tiffany (01:58)
Well, my favorite is when ⁓ they're like, like self-deprecating, where they're like, I'm one of those very annoying vegans. you know, like, you know, they're joking, but ⁓ I don't know. I mean, I dated a vegan guy, ⁓ God, 20 years ago or whenever that was. No, not that long, but a long time ago. And he definitely talked about the China study.

Kat (02:28)
he did. Okay.

Tiffany (02:29)
But he wasn't like super, I don't know, he was a little bit pressurey, but he was also very much, he was like an ultra runner. And so he ate a lot of food, but it was mostly like pastas and veggies. And I'm trying to think what else he ate a lot of quinoa, ⁓ stuff like that. But ⁓ yeah, I found.

Kat (02:40)
Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiffany (02:58)
Dating him really opened my eyes because I was like, okay, that was the first time I had ever tried soy ice cream and stuff like that. And it was just okay. I think it's probably gotten better, but man, tried some, no, tried oat milk ice cream last year and it was god awful. I'm sure that there are better brands, but I don't know which one.

Kat (03:05)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't scratch the same itch.

yeah. There's some,

like I've had coconut milk ice cream and it's fine.

Tiffany (03:25)
Yeah. I don't know which, I wish I knew which one this was to warn people off of it. Cause it was so bad. It was shocking, but, um, yeah, I don't know. But I mean, yeah, they definitely get a bad rap. Especially if I went to like Indiana and said I'm vegan, people wouldn't even know what I was talking about for the most part. I mean, there are vegans living in Indiana, obviously, but like my family would be like, I don't know what that means. You can't eat what?

Kat (03:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

forget it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I was a vegetarian in high school and it was like, when we'd come visit my grandparents in Texas, it was like, you're what? Like I might as well have just said that like, I'm a communist and I want to burn the government to the ground, you know, but, you know.

Tiffany (04:01)
Yes.

I

I know. It's so funny. it's like in,

yeah, in overseas especially, it's like Italians would be like, oh, you're a vegetarian. Here's, you know, bread with meat in it.

Kat (04:12)
yeah.

Fish. Yeah,

yeah, they'd be like, pepperoni is fine, right? And you're like, no, no. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, that's like in my Big Fat Greek wedding. It was one of my mom's favorite things. like, he don't eat meat. It's okay, I make lamb.

Tiffany (04:26)
⁓ Goat? That's not...

Yes.

Kat (04:43)
My mom used to say

that anytime that somebody was like a vegetarian or something. But yeah, well, I guess I should get into what is veganism. Okay, first we got to define terms, right? Usually, veganism refers to a completely plant-based diet, which means no animal byproducts whatsoever. So strict vegans don't eat eggs, honey, they don't wear leather.

Tiffany (04:51)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (05:13)
They don't eat gelatin.

Tiffany (05:13)
Yep. Yep.

Kat (05:15)
And there are even some that debate yeast as a, you so compared to vegetarians, vegetarians might take it a step back and eat eggs or honey. You know, they might eat something that doesn't kill the animal, but is an animal byproduct. And you've got the, ⁓ you know, those are, they might eat milk or they might drink milk. You know, some vegetarians are pescetarians or they eat fish, but not, you know, mammals. There's all, but veganism is all.

Tiffany (05:18)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kat (05:43)
plants. Excuse me. Now I wanted to be clear that a plant based diet doesn't always have to be vegan or even vegetarian. So this is something that even in the NIH articles, like, oh, it's plant based. Technically plant based just means championing plants. So you might supplement with meat or animal byproducts once in a while. they, they plant based diets tend to choose

Tiffany (05:43)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (06:13)
vegetables over animal products when they can, but they're not necessarily vegan or vegetarian. Yeah. There is a strong political and moral component to modern veganism, especially in popular culture. Sometimes it feels almost religious. Like you've heard the joke, like if you meet a cross-fitter, a vegan cross-fitter, like what do they tell you about first? know, like, so a lot of this is tied

Tiffany (06:15)
Okay.

I like that. Okay.

Yeah.

That's pretty good.

Kat (06:42)
Again, a lot of people choose veganism because of the unethical treatment of animals in food production, which we talked about in dairy last week. It is appalling. ⁓ and we also talked about it in the chickens episode. There is a lot of unethical treatment of animals out there. I'm not getting, going to get into that all too much this week because it is a giant and sprawling minefield of questions. ⁓ so this episode I'm focusing on is veganism better for the environment?

Tiffany (06:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (07:12)
Is it better for your health? And is it better for your wallet? So the ethical questions can be saved for another day. Because yeah, we did talk about it. Yeah. Okay. So is veganism better for the environment? ⁓ Yeah. You went through it with like plant-based milks. The NIH paper that I read said plant-based diets could reduce diet-related land use by 76%.

Tiffany (07:16)
Okay.

Yeah, we already kind of talked about it anyway, so.

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Kat (07:43)
and diet-related greenhouse gas emissions by 49%. They were using plant-based, yeah, interchangeably with vegan in this.

Tiffany (07:48)
And that's specifically veganism.

⁓ OK.

OK.

Kat (07:58)
It also said switching to plant-based diets can reduce eutrophication, which is where ⁓ there's too many nutrients in the water from like fertilizer runoff and the water gets too thick with like algae and other growths and all the oxygen dies and it kills everything in the water. so could decrease that by 49 % and then reduce green water use, is like rainfall by 21 % and blue water use, which is freshwater lakes, rivers by 14%.

Tiffany (08:06)
Mm-hmm.

kills everything else, yeah.

Wow.

Kat (08:29)
So red meat production takes a lot of land for cattle to graze. They emit methane gas. Processing meat makes a bigger footprint than most vegetables or fruits. It's meat production, specifically cows, but also pigs and lambs, ⁓ is just kind of bad for the environment, especially at factory farm levels.

Tiffany (08:37)
Yeah.

Kat (08:56)
⁓ caveat though, this doesn't mean all vegetable or fruit production in the US is just magically better for the environment. Like the BBC article I read is a delicate fruits like blueberries that are shipped long distances have almost as much of a carbon impact as red meat production. Yep. ⁓ and the, the

Tiffany (09:13)
What? I had no idea.

Kat (09:18)
BBC article again said that asparagus in the UK has the highest carbon footprint compared to any other vegetable in the country because it's usually imported from Peru. So yeah, just because and then also, and I should have looked into this more, when you process soy to make soy patties, that also adds carbon footprint. You're not just eating like fresh off the vine soy. You're eating or impossible burgers.

Tiffany (09:28)
⁓ that's pretty far.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kat (09:49)
The environmental impact of those, it's not, I think similarly to what you found with like plant-based milks are going to be significantly less than red meat, probably still, but they're still going to have more of an impact than just eating vegetables. So you've got to take that into consideration too. Okay. I had put in here that I was going to take a break, but we didn't. I know. Well, so this, the next section is my big section on this. So we'll take a break halfway through that.

Tiffany (09:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

We keep doing that, it's so funny.

Okay. Okay.

Kat (10:16)
This is the big

question, is veganism better for your health?

Tiffany (10:20)
Yeah, okay.

Kat (10:21)
So a lot of people choose vegan diets for health reasons, right? Bill Clinton in the early aughts, he lost all that weight. He's like, my life is so much better. There are real medical reasons people might want to go vegan. Like legit serious reasons people want to go vegan. Like have you heard of ⁓ the allergy to meat caused by a tick bite? Alpha Gal syndrome? Yeah.

Tiffany (10:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I have. Yeah.

Kat (10:49)
It's caused when a Lone Star tick bites you and gives you an immune system reaction from your blood. And it's the alpha-gal sugar molecule in mammalian meat. So that's pork, beef, and lamb. And it can cause like a, nope, not chicken, just red meat. Well, and you think about it, poultry is birds. So this is, you know, mammal meat, which is, I never thought about it that way before. And I read this and I was like, obviously mammal meat. So probably venison elk.

Tiffany (11:02)
so not chicken. Whoa, weird. God, that's so weird.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Miamo mi.

Kat (11:19)
Also, you know, but it, that's, that's like a real serious thing. But again, going vegan doesn't automatically mean healthy. Right? We used to joke in college that our friends who went vegan were just like living off nuts and whiskey, know, French fries. Yeah. Like that's vegan, but it can be a mask for anorexia, which I'm going to get into. And you can absolutely eat unhealthy foods that have no animal by-products.

Tiffany (11:21)
Whoa.

Yeah.

Yeah, and french fries.

Ooh, yeah.

Kat (11:49)
in them. know. So here are, I'm just gonna go, yeah, I'm gonna go thing by thing and concerns I'd like to break down about veganism and health. So the first is cancer. Some studies have linked eating meat to increase an increased risk of cancer. The American Institute for Cancer Research notes that eating a lot of red meat, especially beef, pork and lamb, is tied

Tiffany (11:53)
Skittles.

Mm.

Kat (12:17)
to a higher risk of colorectal cancer. So they explain that this is because of its high levels of heme iron, which can promote tumor growth. And then also when you cook mammal meat, for lack of a better, when you cook red meat, you use high temperatures, which create heterocyclic amines or MNAs, which also increase cancer risk. This is not true of eating chicken, turkey, and fish.

Didn't find that bit of chew. Now, processed meat of any kind, whether it's salted, smoked, cured with preservatives, that is the worst for cancer outcomes. So like bacon, ham, hot dog, sausage, pepperoni, deli meats, including deli turkey, although not to the extent that these other processed red meats, right? Now, when we talk about processing, we're not talking about canning. We're just talking about adding preservatives, salting it, smoking it. So like spam.

Tiffany (13:07)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (13:18)
Spam, processed meat. Cancer, possibly cancer promoting. Canned chicken, canned fish, not linked to these same processed food outcomes. So tuna tuna fish is not linked to cancer the same way that red meat or processed meat is. Okay. Well, yeah, there's other issues with that, right? I'm just talking about cancer here. So the China study, which is that book we're talking about. Now I only skimmed this article.

Tiffany (13:28)
Whoa. Whoa.

Wow, minus the mercury.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (13:48)
So it's, it's a book from 2006 that like apparently convinced a bunch of people to go vegan. And one of the things he did was kind of cherry pick the studies apparently. So this article you sent me like tore it down. So the tests about linking animal protein to specifically said animal protein causes cancer was basically his, his takeaway. Those tests were based on isolated.

Tiffany (13:53)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (14:17)
casein proteins from milk. Not the same thing as just drinking a glass of milk, not the same thing as eating cheese, right? It's a single protein that has been removed from its holistic, you know, ⁓ presentation and isolated, right? So like milk, yogurt, cheese, they have a bunch of other things going on in them chemically than just the casein protein. So it's kind of like.

Tiffany (14:36)
Okay

Okay.

Kat (14:48)
I wouldn't even know what to compare it to. It's like taking a salad and just taking the tomatoes out and being like, well, this isn't healthy for you anymore because it doesn't have, you know, all these other. I don't I'm not explaining it right. But yeah, yeah, it's it's.

Tiffany (14:53)
Mm-hmm.

No, I get it. understand. And

so they're saying that the casein protein was linked to cancer. Okay. huh.

Kat (15:07)
in rats and mice. That's the next thing. It's rats and mice.

And also, you know, they're feeding them kind of insane amounts of it, you know, which we've talked about in previous studies. Whey, they actually found whey protein, which is also something found in milk, stops tumor growth, inhibits tumor growth in other studies. So, and plant, some plant-based prosto-

Tiffany (15:15)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (15:33)
proteins like lysine, which is added to wheat gluten to make a complete protein, stimulates tumor growth the same way casein does. So he kind of omitted all of those studies. So it's kind of cherry picking the science. There's no smoking gun, basically. According to the guy who wrote this article, Weston Price, plant protein has as many positive correlations with cancer as animal proteins. And it's also worse for you for heart disease and stroke.

Tiffany (15:42)
Hmm, interesting.

Hmm.

Kat (16:03)
Apparently, plant-based proteins have worse outcomes for your health than animal proteins when it comes to heart disease and stroke.

Tiffany (16:04)
plants?

Hold on. Explain.

Kat (16:14)
Okay, I don't know why.

Tiffany (16:16)
Okay. What, first off, what is a plant based protein?

Like soy? Okay. See, I was like, what kind of protein does a carrot have? But.

Kat (16:23)
Yes. When you were talking, so you're talking about the

protein in the pea milk. That's a plant-based protein. Yeah.

Tiffany (16:32)
Yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay, okay. Gotcha.

Kat (16:37)
The risk of heart disease, stroke, or cancer can go up with certain vegan items like seed oils. There are a lot of interactions at play. For example, blood cholesterol seems to have an impact on cancer and overall health, but it's tied to genetics as much or even more, I think, as it is tied to your diet.

Tiffany (16:43)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Kat (16:59)
So it's just another case where studies on the impact, the cancer impact of a vegan versus omnivore diet. And they just, we can't say, right? There's too many factors at play. This might be another case. Well, it's just, it's like, again, the studies that we have were done in mice in very isolated protein cases. And then,

Tiffany (17:09)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (17:28)
When you look at the overall health of vegans, there's all kinds of different things going on. So, yeah.

Tiffany (17:32)
Right. And bless

us. That would be so weird to throw like 10 vegans in a room and be like, you're all healthy. Right? Like, no, not everybody's gonna be healthy.

Kat (17:38)
Yeah.

Well,

well that yes, exactly. Like when you control four factors, like your genetic, you know, risks, mean, genetic stress is the ultimate killer, I think is what we find a bad diet. Yes. Processed diet, but stress genetics, these interplay with diet. So it's like, you have to isolate so many things and then like, what kind of vegan diet, you know, so there's no smoking gun that leaks.

Tiffany (17:56)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (18:14)
a vegan diet versus an omnivore diet to cancer. Except higher cases of colorectal tumors with people who eat a lot of red meat. Again, I will caveat that, a lot of red meat. So what's a lot? You know, okay. Maybe now we can take a break. Okay. Cool.

Tiffany (18:17)
Hmph.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Kat (18:51)
Okay, we are continuing on with our deep dive into claims of veganism being healthier for you. Okay, the next thing is the issue of nutritional deficiencies. This is a big deal in veganism. Maybe I there was a I watched a kind of documentary study that was done between twins.

Tiffany (18:58)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ yes, I've heard a bit about this and it's kind of the news recently, right? I might've just seen it.

Kat (19:19)
Identical twins and it was a scientist took, you know, 10 sets of identical twins and gave one a vegan diet and one a omnivore diet and then put them on like a weight loss muscle gain plan and tried to measure. Yeah. But it's only like a study of 20 people is not, you know, are rigorous. It was interesting, but okay. So.

Tiffany (19:32)
This may be what I saw, yeah. I saw an article that...

Yeah.

Kat (19:45)
It's harder to get all the nutrients you need to survive and thrive from a vegan diet. just is. Vegans will admit this. The NIH took down the biggest problems with veganism or even vegetarianism in terms of nutritional deficiencies. The first is protein and amino acids. So plant proteins are less digestible than animal proteins to humans.

Tiffany (19:50)
Mm-hmm.

Hm.

Okay. Hm.

Kat (20:08)
You need

protein to build and maintain muscles, regulate processes like hormones, enzymes, and your immune system and provide energy. Protein also regulates blood sugar and makes you feel full after eating. There are combinations of foods you can eat that will give you like a complete amino acid protein. You have to eat a lot more of it. So you can't just, you know, eat a little dainty vegan diet and have a full robust protein, you know.

Tiffany (20:27)
Hmm.

Kat (20:37)
It's a lot of thinking and planning. The next one is a B12 deficiency. So B12 is found in meat, poultry and eggs. And it's essential for your brain and blood. If you don't have enough of it, you can increase your cancer risk. So without enough B12, you run the risk of also having anemia. However, unlike protein, you can just take a vitamin to supplement B12.

Tiffany (20:43)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I had to get B12 shots for a minute. Mine was so low. I was getting dizzy.

Kat (21:06)
A lot of women do. Yeah,

I have had to take it too. So it's not just vegans that suffer from this. it is, but luckily that's something you can supplement with a vitamin. ⁓ Iron is a big one. Again, iron from plants is less bioavailable. And interestingly, whole grains, nuts and legumes, which are important parts of vegan diets, can hamper the absorption further because of their phytic acid content. So you could kind of be shooting yourself in the foot.

Tiffany (21:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (21:35)
by eating the nuts and beans and whole grains that you need to make a full, you know, ⁓ protein and amino acid, because it reduces the amount of iron that your body will absorb. Yeah. So again, another supplement you can probably take for that. Zinc, again, poorly bioavailable in plants due to phytate. If you don't get enough zinc, you can have mental health problems, dermatitis, alopecia.

Tiffany (21:48)
Weird. Okay.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Kat (22:04)
Selenium, which regulates the thyroid immune system, metabolism, brain cardiovascular system, and antioxidant activity to protect cells. Also not bioavailable in lots of Vitamin D and calcium. So these are automatically part of milk.

Tiffany (22:23)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (22:24)
⁓ And again, plant bioavailability is harder for vitamin D and calcium. So that leads to low bone density and osteoporosis, which means hip fractures.

Tiffany (22:39)
Which is so interesting and I kind of wish we one of us had read the China study because I remember back in the day this vegan boyfriend that I had was saying that the China study said that that whole calcium the idea of that calcium is not true that you don't need calcium for bone density That's what he said now that I know that it cherry picked I'm probably thinking it's not true, but I've always wondered this

Kat (22:43)
Yeah.

⁓ well.

I didn't get very deep. This is the NIH claims this. I didn't get deep into, I wonder what the China study said about calcium not being necessary. And it might be, I mean, and we might not need as much calcium as four glasses of milk a day, right? But when you're saying that your doctor said that she needs at least one glass of milk a day, I kind of buy that because it is a readily available source of calcium.

Tiffany (23:07)
Okay.

It's big milk conspiracy.

Right.

Right.

Kat (23:33)
that human omnivores can take in with vitamin D already included. So, but you probably get it from a serving of yogurt too, you know. ⁓

Tiffany (23:37)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

I don't know, it's interesting. I'm not buying it now, but fascinating.

Kat (23:50)
I,

there's all kinds of things that go into, again, it's not ever just like, if you cut milk out, you're gonna, know, plenty of people don't drink milk and don't have immediate bone fractures. Yeah, there's a lot of things going on there. So, ⁓ now this is a big one, veganism and mental health.

Tiffany (23:58)
Your bones will break.

Right? Yeah.

Kat (24:11)
So going vegan can have a big impact on your mental health. Partially they think, and I go into the science of this much, but your gut biome controls your mental health. so messing with your digestion in certain ways, high fiber diets are great for the gut biome, but if you're missing other vitamins and nutrients, that can really physically alter the chemicals in your brain, right?

Tiffany (24:41)
Whoa.

Kat (24:41)
So there's that, but it's also orthorexia is a huge issue. So orthorexia is an eating disorder where people are obsessed with eating right. This happens with gym rats. You find it, you know, a lot of the Manosphere has orthorexia issues with like, you know, how much protein you're getting your macros is a type of orthorexia. Veganism gets into that very easily because there's also a moral component often, like you're eating animals.

Tiffany (24:46)
Mmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah. ⁓

Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (25:11)
You know, which

Tiffany (25:11)
Yeah.

Kat (25:12)
is horrifying when you think when I said, you know, mammal mammalian meat, that's like. ⁓ you know, like, yeah, I don't want to eat the fluffy cows, you know.

Tiffany (25:17)
Eww.

Right.

Kat (25:24)
it, but it's also like people can get on a high horse about how much better it is for your body. And so it's this combination of I'm a bad person if I eat meat, but also I'm a bad person if I'm not perfectly taking care of my body and veganism can feed those very, very strongly. So you have to watch out for it.

Tiffany (25:31)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, actually, now that you're

saying that, I definitely know somebody with orthorexia.

Kat (25:49)
It, for me a lot in college I found that the girls who were vegan

We're hiding an anorexia diagnosis because it is a way to control what you eat and make it look like it's a healthier choice. And it's, know, the thing, if you go vegan, you have to eat more food is the thing to get the nutrients and the energy that your body needs. So if you're going vegan and you're eating less that check, check yourself, you know, like get help. There are treatments for.

Tiffany (26:09)
Yeah.

Kat (26:25)
orthorexia out there. It's, it's a very

touchy thing because people are like, well, I'm just trying to be healthy, you know, as like an addiction to exercise. Oh, it's completely glamorized. Yeah. Oh, look how good my skin looks. It's like, you don't get enough zinc. So your hair is all falling out, you know, like starvation does make your hair fall out for the record. So. FYI. It also this obsession over like having to the right foods can make you lose joy in eating.

Tiffany (26:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yep. And it's glamorized too on Instagram. Mm-hmm. Aw, horrible.

Wow.

Yikes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (26:59)
⁓ you can develop serious restrictions on, on what you'll eat, when you'll eat, where you'll eat. And then also you can create like rituals around food that really like can be very harmful. Like, this builds into my next point, there is a social cost of going vegan. Like you were saying people appa like they can apologize. Eating is a social activity for humans. If you can't eat around other people because you, you.

Tiffany (27:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (27:27)
You know, you morally can't stand their choice or there's just nothing for you to eat, you know, and like, maybe your shitty friends should go out to vegan food with you once in a while, you know, but also like if there's a barbecue and you just can't stand, you know, you can cut off a lot of friends that way. And I get that that is a hard decision. We definitely have a vegan friend and you know, he's very clearly political about it and we all love him and he'll say something sometimes like, yeah, well, I wouldn't eat my dog either. And we're like, yeah, we're no one's going to eat your dog, you know.

Tiffany (27:36)
Right.

Yeah.

Kat (27:56)
But it is, I mean, it's gotta be hard to have this, this, I think actually righteous morality about not eating animals. It makes sense. I do think that in a perfect technological world, we should all be able to just not eat animals. Like we should have moved past that point, you know? There's something about like, let's, you know, after reading all that stuff from the NIH about how like, okay, but the bioavailability of

Tiffany (28:14)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (28:25)
plant protein and things is not as high. Okay, we're not there yet, technologically speaking. ⁓ You would just have to consume so much food to hit all your macros. And some people can do it. Yeah, it takes a lot of work. We're not there yet technologically, I think, for a wide swath of people to be vegan. But it can be really difficult to have a community and friends. It really closes off your ability to hang out with.

Tiffany (28:38)
Or a bunch of vitamins, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (28:54)
people. And there are vegan communities, especially if live in a city and stuff. And people are judgy in both directions. Like vegans are judgy and non- have you ever heard like Texans who are like, well, eat your barbecue like you sissy boy, know, soy boy. That's an insult, right? Like

Tiffany (29:01)
Yes.

Oh my God. it's insane.

Yeah, I think I've talked about this on the show before, but I was vegetarian for like, I don't know, six months or a year in college, like like we all were. And yeah, and. It was definitely a control thing, too, like you were saying, but it was amazing to me because I didn't think like I really don't think that I was like preachy about it.

Kat (29:20)
You gotta experiment, you know.

Yes.

Tiffany (29:36)
I'm sure I got preachy from time to time, but ⁓ I was literally just stating the fact that I was vegetarian to a guy that I was working with and he started yelling at me. And I was like about how he loves meat and blah, blah. And I was like, you're yelling at me. Yeah. I'm like, Jesus. So it is a hot topic for people. Yes.

Kat (29:52)
I didn't say you had to. Yeah, I just don't eat it. Yeah.

It is in both directions. I'm,

again, I want to go back to that organic food episode where I was like, can we just stop judging people for their food choices? You know, like no one's eating babies.

Tiffany (30:07)
Yes.

That makes me feel... That episode still resonates with me because as I'm shopping, I'm like, it is okay. What did I buy that was so much cheaper? It was like one third of the cost. I think it was some kind of fruit that was not organic. I was like, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah.

Kat (30:23)
Yeah. Put the strawberries down. Yeah. Yeah.

This is fine. This is fine.

Yeah. So, okay, this was interesting. According to one study, meat eaters had a lower prevalence of depression than meat abstainers.

Tiffany (30:43)
interesting.

Kat (30:44)
It could be the gut biome. You know, it could be they have stronger social ties, you know, but when women tended to be more affected by this than men too. I think a lot more women are vegan than men. There's a whole gender divide going on there. Like meat eating is so tied to masculinity, especially in the United States, which is another, we could do a whole episode on that. But so there's, there's no smoking gun of why veganism has higher rates of depression. We don't know.

Tiffany (31:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (31:14)
It does, maybe people who are more prone to depression tend to go more vegan, you know?

Tiffany (31:18)
Right. and actually, isn't it true that liberals are more depressed than Republicans? So like, maybe there's something there. Yeah. I don't know.

Kat (31:24)
Yes.

chicken or egg with that.

okay.

Tiffany (31:32)
I wonder how many

vegan Republicans there are. I'd love to talk to a vegan Republican. Anyway, if you're out there, hit me up.

Kat (31:39)
They must be out there. Yeah, write us a note. Yeah, let's chat.

⁓ Okay, I want to talk about that too, but okay, eating more vegetables no matter what.

compared to the typical highly processed American diet is going to be better for you, whether you cut meat out completely or not. More vegetables, better for you than mac and cheese. Okay.

If you're vegan eating the mac and cheese, C-H-E-E-Z, you are not getting the benefits of vegetables. Eat vegetables. Period. That's the thing Americans need is vegetables. That's it. That's it? Okay.

Tiffany (32:19)
Mm-hmm.

You know one way, one easy way that I found to get more veggies in my diet is just with every dinner.

Kat (32:33)
Have a salad.

Tiffany (32:34)
Yeah, either a salad if we don't have anything else or like one of our.

sides, guess, is some kind stupid vegetable. Yeah, and they're like...

Kat (32:46)
That's how it's supposed to be. Lima

beans, well, Lima beans are a legume, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Just some plant matter.

Tiffany (32:52)
Yeah, we do a lot of broccoli and a lot of it's steamed and actually steaming is when it roasting's good. Roasting takes longer, but steaming is so easy. Throw some salt pepper garlic powder on it. It's delicious. Charlie even eats it, which is a miracle. Yeah.

Kat (32:54)
Yeah.

I love roasting. Yeah, why don't we use the air fryer? Yes, yeah, it really is.

Yeah, yeah, you don't need to use olive oil. I don't need to use, know, we just

throw vegetables in a pan like our normal meal is salmon or chicken, rice, and then Brussels sprouts, broccoli, whatever vegetable we have. Stir fried takes 10 minutes, you know, and that's dinner. Yeah, just.

Tiffany (33:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's,

yeah, it's like an easy addition.

Kat (33:35)
Yeah, easy way to I

I sneak vegetables into like casseroles and things like when I make mac and cheese, I make mac and cheese and broccoli. ⁓ I make like my chicken enchiladas. I throw like squash and peppers in there, you know. So I just I add vegetables to things to make myself eat vegetables. If I make a smoothie, I got the fruit. I got the coconut milk. I got the yogurt. Handful of spinach because I fucking hate spinach. I hate the way it feels on my teeth.

Tiffany (33:39)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's what Joe

says. He refuses to eat it. And I get it because it does make it feel filmy. I like it still.

Kat (34:11)
Mittens, yeah. Yep. I throw

it in the smoothie and that way I get vegetables, you know.

Tiffany (34:18)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (34:20)
And then we should reiterate, it's the same as with ⁓ organic food. We don't know if vegans tend to be healthier because they're already more health conscious, right? So they tend to be wealthier. They tend, this is the thing.

Tiffany (34:30)
Right.

Yes!

Have the time and the energy to focus on this stuff.

Kat (34:38)
Yes,

it just feels like...

Tiffany (34:42)
vitamins ain't cheap.

Kat (34:43)
The best thing you can do for your health is just be born rich, you know, just get richer. It's true. Yeah. But yeah, they don't, they tend not to smoke. Our friend who's a vegan is so anti-smoking, which yeah. ⁓ they tend, you know, they tend to eat more vegetables, which is good for you. They tend to be wealthier. They tend to already be interested in fitness. So yes. Yeah. So that could be why vegan diets tend to have better health outcomes that way. But yeah.

Tiffany (34:47)
Yeah, well, that is true. Sadly.

Interesting.

Have good healthcare.

Fascinating.

Kat (35:15)
Anyway, that's veganism and health. Okay, it's a mixed bag, but kind of, kind of, yeah, you know, if you do it the right way. If you're mindful about it.

Tiffany (35:15)
huh.

Yeah.

Sounds like so much work, to be honest.

Kat (35:29)
Yeah, people do it though, you know.

Tiffany (35:30)
Yeah.

Kat (35:33)
Okay, now is veganism better for your wallet? Yeah, basically. The NIH found that plant-based consumers spend less than any other type of consumer, including on numerous eaters. I don't know what else there would be. guess, I don't know. Red meat is one of the most expensive items on any grocery list. And chicken, fish aren't far behind. Fish tends to be super expensive, especially if you get good stuff. ⁓ So it takes a lot, again.

Tiffany (35:37)
Yeah

Yes.

Kat (36:00)
It takes a lot more mindfulness to eat a vegan diet and keep up your nutrient levels. So we've talked about this before. Reducing your red meat eating is going to be better for the environment, going to be better for your health. know, Americans eat too many burgers. You know, this is the thing, like I have a pretty privileged life. don't, I don't go to, I don't go to fast food like ever. So this isn't a problem for me. I tend to eat, you know,

Tiffany (36:12)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (36:30)
A chicken breast or a salmon for my protein. have a steak once in a while. You know, I don't have a, I'll have a burger once every six months, you know, ⁓ don't eat it often. A lot of people, it's just the quickest thing you can do is, you know, drive through McDonald's and get a burger, you know, and that, that is the problem with the American diet is that it is so much faster to just grab a burger than it is to go home and cook up your fully vegan amino acid balanced.

Tiffany (36:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (37:00)
Yeast, you know, nutritional yeast plus, yeah, and vitamins are not cheap, you So.

Tiffany (37:04)
Nutritional yeast, yeah, that was whole thing.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (37:12)
And then when you do do fast food, vegan fast food, it's not good for you. Like processed cheese with a Z is not a vegetable. Okay. It's made with its oil, you know, it's junk. So, okay. I had some tips for going vegan. Monitor your nutrient levels. Really. Find a good doctor. Get those levels tested. Watch out for anemia, calcium deficiency, vitamin D deficiency. Find ways.

Tiffany (37:21)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Kat (37:42)
around that. There are ways to go vegan and still get the nutrients you need. You just need to be mindful. Make a plant-based meal plan. Get your vitamin B12 shots, whatever you got to do to keep from breaking a hip or losing too much weight. And muscle mass is what we're talking about. Vegans tend to lose muscle mass. So that is, it is hard for them to build muscle mass. ⁓ Try starting with plant-based rather than full vegan. Start there. Just eat less meat, especially less red meat.

Tiffany (38:00)
Okay.

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kat (38:13)
We eat a lot of protein in our diets. Again, it's in everything. You don't need to eat a steak a day or a whole rotisserie chicken or six eggs to get your protein in. Like check out nutritional values. know, it's supposed, like a serving of meat is like a ⁓ deck of cards or like the palm of your hand. That's how much chicken you need a day, you know? Like, or two servings of that a day. It doesn't, you don't have to raid the butcher shop to get enough protein.

Tiffany (38:19)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Kat (38:43)
⁓ look for locally produced food. can't reiterate this enough meat or vegetables, get the local stuff. And that was something I think it was Michael Paul and when he wrote, I think it was the book where he said, eat less mindfully, mostly plants. was like six words for a healthy diet. know, eat less my yeah, the omnivores dilemma.

Tiffany (39:05)
Mmm. Was this omnivores, dilemma

Kat (39:10)
And he had a chapter in there and I didn't read the book, but I listened to a podcast about it where he was talking about. ⁓

If you're, you know, if you live in the Hudson Valley, supporting local farmers who raise grass fed beef, you know, is kind of something economically that you should do. Like

Small farms that ethically treat animals, even though you could argue butchering animals is not ethical, which I get, you know, although reading that book again, Braiding Sweetgrass has kind of changed my mind. There are ethical ways to eat animals mindfully, you know, again, because apparently we are evolutionarily omnivorous. And while there is technology that it makes it possible to be vegan, naturally we are omnivorous. So there is something about.

Tiffany (39:52)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kat (40:06)
Right now, the human body wants those kinds of proteins, you know. ⁓ Supporting local farmers, know, beef farmers, lamb farmers, pork, is something that is part of the whole landscape of ethics of eating, right? ⁓ The human impact of your choices. So like, if you're going fully vegan and you're just eating processed soy products from

Tiffany (40:11)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (40:36)
China. How is that ethically better? You know, I mean, I think being mindful of where you get your meat from. Yes. Eating less of it. Yes, absolutely. That is an ethically better choice. Again, buy local, buy seasonal. It'll cost you less. It's better for the environment and it's better for you nutritionally, all these things. It's better economically for the people around you. There's just so much. Okay. Avoid processed foods. I can't.

Tiffany (40:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (41:05)
reiterate that enough, vegan meat is not a substitute for real nutrition. It's a nice treat. think it's that was the thing that somebody was talking about. I think it was a New York Times article several years ago. They're like, you notice that nobody, there's no other food that people try to replace other than animal products. Like nobody is making a hot dog that tastes like a carrot or, know, like

Tiffany (41:09)
Right.

Right,

Kat (41:32)
We're not trying

Tiffany (41:32)
right.

Kat (41:33)
to replicate carrots. We're trying to replicate meat without eating meat. So it's kind of a fascinating thing that like.

There is something people really want to eat a juicy burger. You know, there's something about that, I guess. ⁓ So impossible burgers are not nutrition. Like they're processed food. They're as they're, they're a McDonald's hamburger, maybe with a bigger carbon footprint even, you know, like have them as a treat. Sure, sure, sure. But don't, don't think that your vegan soy meat is, is better for you.

Tiffany (41:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Probably not.

Kat (42:12)
than like a salad with, you know, unprocessed things in it. Like, corns, beans, and squash, right? That's what we're supposed to eat.

Tiffany (42:18)
Yeah.

I can't imagine an Impossible Burger would have a bigger carbon footprint than McDonald's.

Kat (42:26)
than red meat. ⁓

well, I wonder. I mean, you're right. I think again, because we talked about, you know, plant based.

And again, it goes into, you know, the how much land it takes to grow. Like if organic, if they're shipping all of this soy from somewhere else, right, to make or all the ingredients and they're using organic only ingredients, which takes up more land. mean, there's so many factors at play when you generally, yeah, a processed soy burger. Yeah.

Tiffany (42:48)
Mm-hmm, right.

Yeah, yeah. But I think, yeah, generally speaking, is

way better. Like even if there are factors that are like similar-ish to beef, it's still, I think, better.

Kat (43:04)
Yeah.

But you know

what's better than an impossible burger? Like edamame? Yeah, right?

Tiffany (43:15)
salad.

No, you're right. I love it, Mommy. Yeah. And that's, I guess that's technically not processed because it's just a fricking bean in a pod.

Kat (43:21)
Edamame is great. I'm a big fan.

Yeah, I

mean, yeah, it's not. There's no added preservatives or oils or yeah, exactly.

Tiffany (43:30)
what's been processed about it.

Well,

I guess you're right. Yeah, it's Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because I mean, mine are just frozen. So that's not. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (43:36)
When we're defining processes, like smoking it, curing it, know, Yeah, chopping it is not processes. OK,

next step, find a diet you like. The Mediterranean diet is a very plant forward diet. And they keep saying it has so many health benefits. You're less likely to waste food if you actually enjoy it, right?

Tiffany (43:51)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kat (44:05)
⁓ There

are tons of websites out there like a virtual vegan which you sent me and you said lemon and... Love and Lemons has a lot... there's a lot of recipes. They can provide healthy balanced meals to help you eat more vegetables and less meat.

Tiffany (44:12)
Love and Lemons. ⁓

Yeah,

they have so many, and it's not purely vegan. Now that I'm thinking about it, there's a stuffed pepper recipe and it's not vegan.

Kat (44:27)
Mm.

But like plant forward, plant based, right? Go for it. And then my last tip is don't obsess over a perfect diet. There's no such thing. Your body is going to change over time and your needs will change too. know, focus on the foods that you like and can afford. There's no need to go to Whole Foods and drop your whole paycheck on stuff labeled vegan or organic. That's really just processed and not, not good for you.

Tiffany (44:30)
They know what's up. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Yes, that is key.

Kat (44:59)
You know, quit the whiskey and the nuts and the cigarettes, make an actual meal, you know, and, and enjoy time with your friends, you know, whether they're vegan or not, or meat eaters or not. Like just let people eat what they eat and let's, let's

Tiffany (44:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kat (45:18)
Enjoy our time together, because we do it so rarely.

Tiffany (45:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. That is so true.

Yeah.

Kat (45:28)
That's veganism. Any other discussions? What did I miss? I mean, again, I'm sure I missed a lot. And I'm sure, you know, my vegan friends out there will, you know, it's a thing every time I've talked with a vegan, they're like, well, you can get the proteins out of it. I'm like, yes, okay. You're probably not eating enough food. Like as a vegan, you probably are not eating enough food. ⁓

Tiffany (45:32)
⁓

Yeah, like I said, the vegan boyfriend I had would eat all the time, but he was also an ultrarunner he was literally constantly eating.

Kat (45:55)
It has to. Yes. And that's yeah, that's another thing.

Yeah, so but I don't know. ⁓ So are we going to do microplastics next week? Are we going to do it for the end of the season?

Tiffany (46:05)
Yeah.

Yes.

I don't know. I did think about that.

Kat (46:13)
because our current lineup says that it's PFAS are the last.

Tiffany (46:19)
We'll do microplastics next week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if we got PFAS too, then that's a big one also.

Kat (46:20)
last thing. Okay, microplastics next week. I'm looking forward to it.

That's, I

you got the hard ones. got mushroom coffee. You want mushroom coffee?

Tiffany (46:31)
We should switch.

Maybe. Can I have it? Is that okay? We don't have to. I think you, you wanted to do mushroom coffee, right? That was your idea.

Kat (46:37)
And I'll do PFAS.

Yeah, that's fine. No, no, that's fine. I-

⁓

I think we wanted to like one of us buy it and try it and see what it was like. I don't want to.

Tiffany (46:51)
I have zero interest.

I don't want to be here.

Kat (46:56)
Maybe we'll skip mushroom coffee and find something else.

Tiffany (46:58)
I'm curious about it though.

Kat (47:02)
Do the research on it, don't have to buy it. Maybe if you can find some place that sells it and get a cup.

Tiffany (47:04)
Okay, I might though. I know I want like a sample.

yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be better. Fine. In DC. I bet somewhere in DC has it. I bet. Okay. Okay, sweet.

Kat (47:10)
You know what? We're going to hang out this this weekend. We're going to hang out. So maybe we can. OK, we'll go looking. We're going to hunt.

Yeah, and we'll take some Instagram videos so you can all see this video. This this episode is going to come out after we see each other in D.C. anyway. yeah. Yeah, shit. Yeah, you can't stalk us. Ha ha. We already did it. Yeah, not that we have stalkers. Thank God. But yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (47:25)
Yeah, exactly. I was like, did I just triangulate us? No. It's weeks later. Yeah. We have been in DC at some point. No, no. You never know. ⁓

Kat (47:40)
Well, yeah.

Tiffany (47:41)
Sweet. Okay, let's do that. That sounds fun. ⁓ And then you can have PFAS. Ha ha ha.

Kat (47:47)
Yeah,

okay, I'm on it. All right, I have an idea for a roll that beautiful bean footage. I mean our ending song and I have an idea for what people should do. Tell a friend, make them listen to this video and have an argument about veganism together over a plant based meal. Ideally and send us pictures. Plant forward, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Tiffany (47:49)
you

There you go.

Yes. Plant forward. I love it.

Very good. Cool. All right. Well, thank you for all that research. was a lot. yeah. Yeah. All right. See you next week.

Kat (48:19)
Yeah, thanks for listening. and thanks. Thanks everyone for listening. Have a good night. Eat more plants.