Tiffany (00:02)
Hi Kat! Good, how are you? ⁓ good, I'm glad. ⁓ So did you know? You probably do. But according to Psychology Today, experiencing a sense of belonging is vital for our psychological well-being. Kind of obvious, right?

Kat (00:02)
Hi Tiffany, how's it... Better every minute.

Yes. I mean, I was like, uh-huh. I think I knew that without Psychology Today telling me.

Tiffany (00:30)
So a community, she doesn't know what I'm talking about, so I'm like trying to keep it a surprise. Yeah, what is it? A community can provide us with exactly that, a sense of belonging, support and identity. It reduces stress and feelings of isolation as well. So because of the ability to communicate via the internet, there have been like actual erosions in social skills in younger people.

Kat (00:34)
Yeah, this is fun. I'm like, and?

Mm-hmm

Tiffany (00:58)
So like a fear of making a phone call and older people, a hundred percent.

Kat (00:58)
and and older people

Tiffany (01:01)
Yeah. So like a fear of picking up the phone and making a phone call that type of thing. So community, how on God's green earth do you find a community in this God forsaken country or right? A real life one as Charlie would say for real life, like in bluey or how do you build one? ⁓

Kat (01:16)
Yeah, fair. That's not online. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (01:28)
And does community increase the impact of any sort of activism or advocacy that we pursue? So today we will talk about community through my painstakingly slow movements toward building one for myself. And that these are all steps that anyone can recreate, but probably way faster than me.

Kat (01:34)
⁓

Awesome, I love it.

by reading atomic habits first, but.

Tiffany (01:57)
to help to help you find that village you're looking for and also we'll talk about why it's not your damn fault for feeling community less if you do. Welcome to greening up my

Crap. I got it.

Kat (02:16)
You

Tiffany (02:24)
Oi. All of the music, like my screen was in a way that it all just said Gooma. And I was like, shoot, which one is it?

Kat (02:37)
We've had this, it's funny because we've been using Riverside for like a year and a half now and we still, I don't, I just figured out how to add graphics editing the video like three weeks ago.

Tiffany (02:43)
Yeah.

I know, well I think

when I updated then I got added as an option, but it does make it a lot easier actually. it's way easier. Anyway, behind the scenes. So yeah, that's what I'm talking about, community building. Yeah, and sort of like the nuance of it, because it is pretty interesting.

Kat (02:56)
It's so easy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, again, we have blooper rules.

Okay, I love

Yeah.

It's been one of the big things that I've been like reading about, you know, anytime the Atlantic comes out with an article about like, why are we so mean? Or, you know, what's, what's, what's wrong? And, and also, you know, talking about reading books, nobody does that anymore either. And it's, it's all kind of the same.

Tiffany (03:26)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Kat (03:37)
root issue, you know, that's making us less human, or less humane, I think. So.

Tiffany (03:43)
Yeah,

I think you're right. I think you're totally right. I think we're going in the same direction. my lord. Hitting my microphone. But yeah, I think that's the direction we're going to take this today. Real quick on my sources, I use psychology today, obviously. I use the Ikea Center. Don't know them so much, but they came up. Mother Lee, talking about making mom friends.

Kat (03:49)
I

Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (04:11)
⁓ and The Guardian. Yeah, and also I briefly referenced a book that I didn't actually read but I'm curious about reading it. It's called The Art of Community, Seven Principles for Belonging.

Kat (04:13)
cool, okay.

cool. Okay.

Tiffany (04:25)
Yeah, because what I have seen from the author so far is that they aren't so,

What do call it?

rose colored glasses about community? Yeah.

Kat (04:37)
Okay, interesting. So like

maybe the pros and cons or...

Tiffany (04:42)
Actually yeah, that is part of it. It seems like so. Yeah. Not necessarily cons, but potential. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (04:44)
Okay. Okay.

Pitfalls, maybe. I

have a lot coming to mind just thinking about it, but yeah.

Tiffany (04:57)
good, because I want this to be a discussion because I only have like three pages of notes so we can... I know and it's gonna be an hour but it is what it is. Alright so what is community? So do you wanna like...

Kat (05:02)
We always say that and then we talk for an hour and a half. Yeah. Yeah.

take a stab at it myself or what?

Tiffany (05:15)
Yeah, because

I have, I really like this definition from that book I talked about, but I'm curious because there are a lot of them.

Kat (05:20)
Okay.

There are for sure. I feel like a community is a group of individuals who come together based on shared values, beliefs, or goals. ⁓ They don't necessarily have to have stated goals to be a community, but sometimes, know, service or politics, those are all community. Although I've heard that

politics is like the absolute worst community that you could get involved in if you're lonely. ⁓ Yeah. They, I wish I had this article like on hand, but I think it was in the Atlantic and they were talking about ⁓ more and more people our age and younger. Well, I think across the spectrum in the United States, the only community that they identify with is a political one. And it's actually extremely alienating.

Tiffany (05:57)
really? Tell me more.

Huh.

Kat (06:23)
because, and it feeds into, I think it's like a self feeding cycle of like, politics is so polarized. And then if you join a political group, you become even more polarized, which, you know, then alienates even further from like, people who aren't as progressive as you, you don't want to talk to them, you know, it's like, and they found that, that young people who only participated in politics as a community activity were actually.

Tiffany (06:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (06:52)
much lonelier. Yeah, and angrier. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Tiffany (06:53)
Whoa, that's really interesting. Yeah, angry. I totally could see. We're going to talk about that a little bit on our Patreon episode, actually, right? Like that's our plan because that

that is so fascinating. That is so fascinating. We'll pin that. So anybody who wants to hear that conversation, we're going to talk about like.

Kat (07:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (07:16)
Yeah, like polarization, but also like anger and yeah, that's okay. That's really interesting. Yeah, so I liked this definition from the art of community where he says that it is a group of people who share mutual concern for one another.

Kat (07:21)
Yeah.

Okay, that tracks too. Yeah.

Tiffany (07:42)
Yeah, I really liked it. And I had like 100 different definitions that I found. Like a lot of people said, like, common, it comes from common unity. like, shared, like you said, belief or interest. Yeah, but I like the idea of mutual concern for each other.

Kat (07:45)
Yeah.

values are young.

And I think that

makes sense in that, like.

Because that develops. Because you start maybe from the basis of a shared belief or goal, and then you grow to care about each other. And that's huge, because that's the difference between just showing up to a political rally or being involved in a community. And it's not just like, I have empathy for everyone. It's like, no, I genuinely care about you and you and you and commune with you.

Tiffany (08:06)
Yes.

Right.

Yeah, totally.

Yes.

Kat (08:35)
you know, like.

Tiffany (08:35)
Right, yeah and like having a neighbor that you have pizza with once but know nothing really about versus, this was one of the examples, versus a neighbor that you like stop and chat with and make an effort with and get to know and like know when they're in the hospital or something and you're like really concerned about them.

Kat (08:51)
Right, like

my neighbor next door just put her dog down and I'm like, I gotta buy that girl flowers. yeah.

Tiffany (08:55)
Right.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. And there's also the idea that we're all members of a lot of communities, so it's not just one. Well, yes, and that is ideal because I was thinking about it in a way, it's like your partner can't be your only support network. Yeah, it's like one type of community,

Kat (09:10)
Yeah, right, ideally, hopefully.

community. Yep.

Tiffany (09:27)
your neighbors or your school or your work or whatever, that one community can't be your only support or shouldn't be ⁓ for your own mental sanity because ⁓ there was this idea that came up like when one community starts sucking basically, yeah, then you can lean on the other ones or prioritize the other ones more during that time.

Kat (09:47)
What are you gonna do? Yeah.

Yeah,

that's interesting. Do you know the concept of the third space? Okay. I was just thinking about that.

Tiffany (09:57)
Yeah.

Yes. we could have talked about

that actually during this season, just like the joy of third spaces, but, and it's, actually really similar.

Kat (10:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, well, the idea is, you have three, in modern life, you need three spaces. You need home, you need work, and you need a third space that's just social. And it used to be, it could be like, just the library could be your third space or a bar or church. But increasingly that third space has become social media, which

Tiffany (10:35)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (10:37)
I'm sure you'll get into a little more, that causes a lot of problems because you don't actually commune with people, you know.

Tiffany (10:43)
Right.

Yeah, I didn't actually get too deep into social media because that's like its whole own other animal. But yeah, it's true. And also what I've heard is a lot of third spaces are becoming things that you have to pay for, whereas that didn't used to be the case. Or at least you have to pay like your gym. Like it's sort of exorbitant the amount that you have to pay. Like my mother-in-law, is her third space is the gym, but she pays like a shitload every month. So.

Kat (10:58)
that also. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Yeah.

And yeah, the club, you know, like, yeah. Also interesting when you like when you talk about racial history in the United States, one of the biggest things that

Tiffany (11:13)
And me too, Mm-hmm.

Kat (11:28)
The government did during the civil rights activism of the fifties and sixties was like destroy third places for black communities. ⁓ so that they couldn't congregate, you know, cause good trouble and that that's, you know, now we do it ourselves. The government doesn't even have to, you know, that we, we just go online and refuse to talk to each other anymore, you know?

Tiffany (11:42)
Yeah. Right.

Wow.

Right.

It's like my mom is old. Sorry, mom. She's old. when she was growing up, kids would go and have like, I mean, we had like high school dances, but these were a little bit different. It's like you, you would go to like town hall and learn a dance. So somebody would actually like teach you a specific dance. And that was just what you did. And that was your third space. You didn't have to pay to be there. Probably it just existed. ⁓

Kat (12:01)
You

Like socials. Yeah. ⁓ so that's cool. Yeah.

Yeah, that's

cool.

Tiffany (12:26)
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, those are definitely disappearing. And that does not help with community building at all. Which is, like I said, why we can't... It's so easy to blame ourselves and I'll say I have blamed myself. Like, what am I doing wrong? Because I have felt since we moved to sort of the country, suburb area...

Kat (12:32)
Yeah. No. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Tiffany (12:54)
And to be honest, I felt this a lot even before then, ⁓ but I felt lonely. I felt anxious. I felt depressed. felt like completely isolated at times. And it wasn't just COVID, but COVID did not help. And yeah, it's because I, in DC after, I'll talk about this, but in, it took a while, but I finally got to a place where I had a solid group and a solid.

Kat (13:06)
Correct.

Tiffany (13:23)
I guess you could call it a community. ⁓ And more than one solid communities, but.

Yeah, I mean, it's been a massive struggle since.

Kat (13:32)
No, I'm

same for me moving to Austin. You know, I've been here eight years. I just, I so I went on a girls trip this weekend with two women I've known one since high school, one since like right after college. So these are decades and we've all, we all lived in Albuquerque together, you know, and I don't have that kind of community in Austin. And I know part of it is because where I am in life, you know,

Tiffany (13:36)
I was wondering.

Right.

Kat (14:01)
but also changing social mores. It's just like that, the kind of community I could build 10, 15 years ago.

isn't as easy to do now, you know? And I have good friends here. And like, I kind of feel like community is somebody you could call to help you move, you know? Like that's what it, and I have that, but it's not like, this weekend was just so easy. And like, we have shared history and we have shared values, you know, we could all, we were planning their runs for political office in the state, you know? And like, I don't have that in Texas, you know? I don't have that some kind of,

Tiffany (14:13)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kat (14:40)
friendships or trust or shared language even, you know? ⁓ So it was just like, it's hard not to be like, maybe I should move back to Albuquerque. And it's like, okay, let's think about this. But ⁓ yeah, they're killing it. Yeah. I don't, you know, I, still, every time I go back to Albuquerque, I run into someone I used to know at a bar, you know, or

Tiffany (14:45)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Are they there still? Okay, that is, that's tricky. Yeah.

Kat (15:09)
Out on a walk, be like, Hey, ⁓ a long time to see how I've, know, and I don't have that here. And it, know, Austin's a bigger city and priorities are different here. People are there's tech bros and you know, there's a lot more money in networking than in Albuquerque. So it's, it's kind of, I've never felt comfortable in those spaces, but yeah, it's weird to get like a little dewy eyed about your former communities. And it's like,

Tiffany (15:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kat (15:37)
It's not just because I'm over 40 and it's, you it's because the world has changed significantly. So.

Tiffany (15:46)
I know, it is kind of crazy. It's crazy to think about because it changes so slowly but so quickly at the same time. Wait a minute. Yeah. But I think we're all, I hope we're all kind of realizing like, wait a minute. We need this stuff in our lives, especially as we get older. That doesn't make it easy, but.

Kat (15:52)
Yeah, it's just all of a sudden it's like, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's

so, I mean, it's one of the greatest indicators of longevity, right? Is having a social support system, just someone you talk to once a week, you know, or go out to lunch with, you know? ⁓ and it's, ⁓ I'm watching, yeah, my, my dad works at it. He puts a lot of work in, but like Sean's dad doesn't. And yeah, he, the only community he has is.

Tiffany (16:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kat (16:35)
his children, you know, and he's been in Austin for 10 years. So, you know, and he worked, you know, he's had jobs here. So we're not making community at work like we used to. Yeah. All these things.

Tiffany (16:37)
⁓ yep.

Yes.

Yes, totally. Yeah. Like you can't go out for a coffee run with an online colleague.

Kat (16:57)
No, or I mean, and even if you work in an office, people just don't anymore. Like the last office I worked at, try, we would do lunch once in a while and we try, cause we all had to be in the office one day a week. But when we had a happy hour, like two people would show up, you know, and it's. I like, you know, at former jobs, I'd be like, I'm having a party. I'll invite my colleagues over. like, I, that would feel weird now in an office setting. I don't know.

Tiffany (17:02)
that's interesting.

⁓ wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is it an age thing or is it just culture

or both? Yeah.

Kat (17:27)
I think it's cultural. mean,

I think it is like we've all kind of become specialized so that when we're in a forced kind of communal setting, we don't feel the need to make it a community anymore. You know, like we have our specialized communities. It's like, well, I have my hash buddies and I don't need, you know, I don't need new work buddies. So.

Tiffany (17:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Kat (17:59)
⁓ And it's not like, we don't want friends at work. Like, I love my colleagues. But it's just like, our lives are so specialized and so planned around these specialized things that breaking out of that for like a new space, you know, especially in a forced context like work where you don't really get a say in who you work with, you know. ⁓

Tiffany (18:15)
Yes.

Yeah. Right. Totally.

Kat (18:24)
It's like, that's not comfortable. Even if like we all worked in public health. So it's like we all were there for a reason. Like we agree that this is important stuff and it's and we're cool when we're together, we're tight. But it's like, I'm not having them over for dinner. I'm not, you know, except the my boss who was a friend of mine before I started working there. So and I still keep in touch with them. But yeah, we never really.

Tiffany (18:27)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (18:49)
did it in the same way that I have with previous colleagues. It's just a shift. Yeah.

Tiffany (18:52)
Yeah, that's

interesting. I will say even when I was in my early to mid-20s, we would have happy hours and it took a minute for them to like take off and then once we got going with it, it was like once a week. Everybody came basically. ⁓ But the first, it was that and it took consistent work by this one guy for like a year. Yes.

Kat (19:03)
It takes time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. You gotta have the cruise director. Yep.

Tiffany (19:20)
And it was really because of him. And that was even like, you know, 10, 15 years ago. So.

Kat (19:25)
Yeah.

Yeah. I, yeah.

Also, you have remote work, I will say, as much as I think it's super important. does, especially when you work in different geographical areas. ⁓ It's much more difficult to camaraderie across those digital means.

Tiffany (19:38)
Yes.

Totally.

Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting because I also discovered this idea that there's something potentially dangerous about communities. ⁓ So a community that is safe, comfortable. This came from a quote from

Kat (19:56)
Okay, let's hear it.

Tiffany (20:04)
think it was Aikida. It was just somebody who had asked, what does community mean to you, to a bunch of different writers or something. ⁓ But a community that is safe, comfortable, and trusting can be so enticing that individuals can forget about the world outside of their community or regard other communities with subtle prejudices. Which is another reason why being too ingrained in one community can inhibit us.

Kat (20:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I would say also.

You can have this need to protect that community, even if the threat is internal. ⁓ So I'm thinking of the Southern Baptist Church, say, or the Catholic Church, or ⁓ Christian rock music. I think I told you this. I don't know. But there's this scandal right now that one of the big stars of Christian rock music ⁓

Tiffany (20:35)
Yeah.

even if there's not a real threat.

Yes, yes, yes.

Kat (21:02)
groomed and sexually abused and sexually assaulted lots of people. ⁓ Do you know DC Talk?

Tiffany (21:09)
⁓ who?

No.

Kat (21:16)
Okay. There were this, there were this boy band kind of that was formed in the like late eighties, early nineties. Jerry Falwell put them together at Liberty university. So it was one black guy and two white guys. ⁓ And they were a band and they like rapped and sang. And in like 1994, they came out with like a Nirvana style kind of album that like actually made it on the secular charts. But they were like, if you went to

Tiffany (21:20)
Yeah.

Okay. Uh-huh.

Okay.

Kat (21:45)
evangelical youth group in the nineties, you knew DC talk and the black guy, Michael Tate, in 2009, band dissolved and he started as the front man for another Christian super band called the newsboys, which also in the nineties you and, actually the newsboys put out a song that was like Trump's, ⁓

Tiffany (21:49)
Okay.

Okay.

Kat (22:14)
Marching song like it was like God's not dead and it was like the MAGA theme song during his first campaign Huge deal. So this is like he's a big deal on Christian music and he's really heavy in the industry and it There was a report that came out like two men were like, yeah when I was 20 he got me drunk and touched me and You know, I woke up with my pants down, you know and

Tiffany (22:15)
lord, okay.

Okay. Yeah.

my god.

Kat (22:43)
And then like a bunch of other people have come out and said, yeah, I was 13 and he exposed himself to me in a bathroom, you know, like, and people knew about this for decades. They joked about it.

Tiffany (22:46)
Nobody... right.

Right. mean, the Diddy

trial. I mean, this is everywhere. Like the guy at Nickelodeon, Weinstein. Yeah, it's everywhere.

Kat (23:02)
Right. that's a thing. Yep. This

insularness to protect bad actors to preserve the community. And I've seen it. I've seen it in the hash community. It's like, well, you know, and even when it comes out like, yeah, he's, he's a rapist. They're like, well, there, but for the grace of God go I, and it's like, okay, congratulations. Yeah, we're all bad, but this is criminal and he should be in jail. And what are we going to do?

Tiffany (23:10)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Yeah.

Kat (23:32)
to protect victims, the people who have already suffered and in the future, how do we prevent this? If we just say, well, we're all bad, we're all sinners, then there's no growth. there's, we, you cannot apologize for this bad behavior and, it makes, get so like riled up about it, but this happens repeatedly in communities that protect themselves by hiding that actions, the Catholic church.

Tiffany (23:36)
rate.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kat (24:01)
The Southern Baptist Church.

Tiffany (24:02)
Yes. Yes.

Kat (24:03)
Yeah. The presidency, you know, like...

Tiffany (24:06)
Yeah,

totally. Totally.

Kat (24:08)
So,

that would be my downfall for community is that it's so precious to us that we can't purge it of bad actors because, you know, we can't admit there's anything wrong with it.

Tiffany (24:18)
Yeah. Yeah. And actually I

found another point that was saying like, we have to risk being excluded by the community. That kind of this exact thing for, or at least like disturbing or alienating others ⁓ to become, it's a different topic, but like to become advocates for inclusion in the community. like where communities exclude people, you have to like be willing to speak out against.

internal actions and potentially be expelled from the community. Yeah, but it's like, I think it's this drive to belong that makes us feel like we can't. ⁓ But yeah, is pretty dangerous.

Kat (24:48)
Mm-hmm.

which is what happens. Yeah.

⁓ I have a new term that I just read about when I was doom scrolling the other day. ⁓ Which, which, okay, fear of other people's opinions. FOPO, right? So we used have fear of missing out, you know, FOMO, and then we had fear of going out, which is FOGO. But now this is a new term that they're saying is increasingly common, probably because of social media, ⁓ that you

Tiffany (25:15)
interesting.

Yeah, totally.

Kat (25:31)
know if you're out with some friends and they make a joke that you don't think is funny but you don't say anything because you want to belong right and you you

Tiffany (25:39)
Yes.

Kat (25:42)
Prioritize external validation over your own thoughts and feelings. That's, and that's, you know, clearly something that we all have to some extent, but it's totally, ⁓

Tiffany (25:45)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (25:57)
the word I'm looking for? Exacerbated. Yeah, exaggerated by social media where everything has to be perfect and you need people to like your link or you So that was a really I was like boy I get that. ⁓

Tiffany (25:59)
Exaggerated? Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

No, that is, that is kind of crazy.

Kat (26:17)
FOPO is a sad byproduct of and also the death of community.

Tiffany (26:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because is it a real community if you can't be honest with each other?

Kat (26:30)
Right,

right. And vulnerability is what breeds trust, is what breeds the care for each other, right? So, wow, yeah. boy.

Tiffany (26:38)
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

And there's also this potential for people to say that they're building community, but actually they're just trying to extract, you know, your attention or your time or your whatever to, for their own benefit. So.

Kat (26:53)
Yeah. Yep.

Networking. Or, yeah, or social media or... Yeah, it's not real community building. It's what can you do for me? Yeah.

Tiffany (26:58)
Yes. Yes. That's why networking is so awful.

Exactly. Yeah, and it's saying like, real community is built, and I'm going to talk about this like more at the end, but it's built when you make a commitment with no expectation of a return.

Kat (27:24)
Sounds like hope.

Tiffany (27:26)
Yes, it does. That's interesting. Yeah, basically, you're not constantly thinking like, what am I getting out of this? Which actually, now that I'm saying it out loud, I think is what a lot of people think of when they think of a village. Because they're like, I don't have any support, which I get, I feel it too. They're like, I have no support. I have no one who's helping me. I have no one to call. I have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't have these things.

Kat (27:35)
Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiffany (27:56)
when I've seen other people say like a village I'm skipping ahead to the end but like a village takes work like you have to participate yes

Kat (28:01)
That's okay. Yeah. What are you, who are you helping? Yeah.

Who are you supporting in these ways? Yeah. That's a

Tiffany (28:11)
Yeah, and actually, think that's one of the bigger things that contributes to our well-being is helping others. That's what I've read and I experienced it. I'm a human. So yeah, I think I kind of think we have it a little bit backwards in terms of like.

Kat (28:16)
100 % Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Tiffany (28:30)
the purpose of building community. Because, yes, because most of the time that's how we think of it. At least it's how we talk about it.

Kat (28:32)
Right, it's not me me me, it's us us us.

Tiffany (28:42)
And I think also TV has kind of screwed us up, social media and TV, like, ⁓ cause I think when I think of community, I think of like friends. And I think of how I met your mother, where I think a lot of us, including myself are sitting around waiting for that kind of an insular friend. Yes. Like you just show up every day and you're, you instantly belong.

Kat (28:52)
Yeah.

Right.

six close friends who can just, yeah.

Tiffany (29:11)
and you don't have to explain yourself, you don't have to explain if you're in a bad mood, whatever. Everybody is waiting for that kind of a group to fall in their lap, and that's what they think of when they think of community, including myself, like I said.

Kat (29:19)
Yep. Right.

Right. Or they just want to join it pre-built. Yeah.

Tiffany (29:25)
Yes,

yes, exactly. But it's like we have to remember that that is fiction. And even if you see that kind of thing in real life, it's not like that really. ⁓ And even if it did really exist, maybe we wouldn't want it because like, how many of these tight-knit groups have you tried to infiltrate and been completely rejected from? Yes!

Kat (29:49)
Mean Girls.

Tiffany (29:52)
And even in the shows, I looked it up because I couldn't remember exactly, but I think even How I Your Mother had an episode. I remember it. And I don't remember any details where somebody started dating somebody new or tried to get somebody new in the group and they all just rejected her because she was annoying or they thought she was annoying. Yeah. So it's like, how about maybe that's not the goal, even though that's what our generation has been fed.

Kat (30:06)
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Didn't even give her a chance.

Yeah.

we want to click, but ⁓

it's important to have core groups of friends, like community is not just your three closest friends that you can gossip with. It's something else. Yeah.

Tiffany (30:28)
Yes, exactly.

And so I think it's important for us to look for open groups that are not closed-minded, closed off, and hard to get into.

Kat (30:41)
Yes. And also,

what is it my dad always said? If you could find the perfect church, they wouldn't want you as a member. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (30:49)
Right. Yeah, it's the same idea.

Kat (30:55)
I think we should take a, we should probably take a break.

Tiffany (30:56)
Yeah, so yeah, I was gonna say I'm gonna take a quick break

and then after that, we're gonna talk about, I'm just gonna go through like my process for building how I have built communities and it's very sloppy, just like my sloppy habits. So yeah, so zero pressure, but and then we'll kind of talk about like.

Kat (31:04)
Yeah.

Perfect.

Tiffany (31:19)
takeaways at the end.

Kat (31:20)
I like it. Okay.

Tiffany (31:38)
Okay, sweet. I'm glad I muted my mic because I coughed.

Kat (31:41)
I saw your face and I was like, what was that? no, parched. Yeah.

Tiffany (31:47)
I forgot my water, but it's fine. I'll get it later. ⁓

So I'm also really curious about your experience building community, because I think from an outsider's perspective, you're pretty good at it. yeah. So I like, yeah. And I think I'm in the same boat, but ⁓ so, okay. I wanted to start off, because I was originally going to, this episode was going to be about my community garden, but I wanted to expand it because I was like,

Kat (32:02)
maybe I used to be but yeah.

Right.

Tiffany (32:17)
I haven't been involved enough to have a whole episode on a community garden.

Kat (32:21)
You're like, so I go there once a week and sometimes the same person's there. The end.

Tiffany (32:24)
Exactly!

And not even that. Like, that's not even as much as I've been involved. Like I said, sloppy. We're doing it here, people. We're trying. We're doing our best. so after I was on the waitlist for this community garden for five years, I got on it like right when I first- right when we moved here, and I finally got a message saying, you're in. You have a spot.

Kat (32:31)
Yeah.

Cheese.

It came

with like a exploding firework GIF and you're like,

Tiffany (32:51)
Yeah, I wish.

That's what it felt like. But yes, exactly. Oh, that would have been so cool. But my god, am I like already busy like everybody? And I also have a literal invasion of plants in my backyard. like, had yes, was like, do I have time to garden elsewhere? So I hesitated.

Kat (32:55)
Your Hogwarts letter, there you go. ⁓

You want to go somewhere else and do that? Yeah.

Ha ha.

Tiffany (33:17)
And that was especially because I was already volunteering for the forestry board and I knew I was like, one of these has to go. I can't do all of this. So I spent a couple maybe weeks or months kind of like debating. I was in both. ⁓ and then I finally was like, I enjoy the forestry board, but I actually, I think there's more hope of building like a little gardening community with the, ⁓ garden, the community garden. I went, I chose that.

and I gave up the forestry board for now. You never know, I can go back. Excuse me, I burped. ⁓ But boy boy, am I still, am I an imperfect participant? ⁓ Did I talk about this at all yet? my God. So I have gone a couple times and it's already June, mid-June, late June. ⁓

Kat (33:49)
You can go back. Yeah.

Yeah, let's hear it.

He's like,

yeah, it's actually the end of June is this weekend. So yeah.

Tiffany (34:13)
I know,

it's crazy. So, it's so funny because I took the smallest plot available because I knew that's all I had time for. Exactly. And this woman next to me, I did end up meeting her. Her name's Cathy, she's lovely. But she... Her bed is so perfect. It's like just a raised bed, but it's perfect. It's got a fence around it. It's mulched. It's...

Kat (34:21)
You don't have time to grow corn fields, right?

yes.

Tiffany (34:42)
composted it's just like thriving and mine I literally went one day the time that I had Don't know where the car I didn't have time to attend the orientation. So I don't know where the compost is I don't know where anything is so I know which bed I have and I just Went with my gloves and my shoes on and that was it and I like maybe I had it. I think I had some yeah, I had some ⁓ Shovels I think I brought my like little tools

I was like, well, shit, all I have is dirt. I don't have compost here, but it's fine. So I just dug all the weeds out, planted my crap that I had had in my garage for like a month. And I was like, this isn't going to work. But actually I had gotten, you can just take regular potatoes by the way, but I got like seed seed, seeder, seeder, seed potatoes, whatever. See like overpriced potatoes that you plant and that will theoretically grow.

Kat (35:12)
You

Alright.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

Tiffany (35:40)
because I had read some potatoes don't actually grow if they're pesticide ridden or something. Yeah, I could have just tried it, but I didn't want to risk it. I was like, these are super soft because they've been in my bag for a month, but I'm going to try it. So I did that, and then I did one thing of garlic, and I came back and they're thriving. But that's it. Everything else has been half eaten by bunnies. It's chaos, and that's OK. And I talked to the woman, and I was like, I apologize in advance for the way this will look.

Kat (35:45)
Okay, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ugh.

Tiffany (36:10)
this year and she's like you know what I don't know what the hell I'm doing either like she's like I have friends who know what they're doing I don't know what the hell I'm doing this is my first time I'm doing this I was like ⁓ cool awesome so we like exchanged numbers and we agreed to water each other's shit if we need it you know yeah yeah but so far that's been the extent of

Kat (36:14)
Bye!

Perfect. Yes.

that's awesome. Yeah.

Tiffany (36:33)
my participation because they've had meetings and stuff and I'm signed up to help with the pollinator garden but it's been so hot that we haven't actually done it. So it's been really low lift but I'm just eking my way through this year and then I think once next year comes around I will have a little bit more time.

Kat (36:50)
One, also you've got that ADHD type response, right? Where if you don't know what's gonna happen, you need to have a visualization before you will be able to do it safely in your own brain. Yes.

Tiffany (36:54)
Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

100%. Yeah, I'm like slowly introducing myself. Yeah, exactly. Otherwise I will get overwhelmed. I think that's part of it.

Kat (37:10)
Yeah,

I know, quit going altogether. Yeah.

Tiffany (37:12)
Yeah, totally. So I'm just like giving myself massive amounts of grace and it's kind of nice actually because I'm like, I'm still here. I still have this plot. Not everybody's looks perfect. Most people's looks like kind of garbage and that's great, you know? Cool. Yes. And it's for fun. ⁓ Yeah, exactly.

Kat (37:26)
Yeah, yeah. It's gardening. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You're not feeding the masses or something that like

a government program is relying on you to do this for school lunches or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (37:37)
Right. I wish, but yeah, not this year, maybe next

year. Yeah, and then they also have meetings and picnics and stuff. There's a fall picnic that I'm going to try to go to. And they also seem very open and understanding because I told the woman, was like, I don't know how much time I'm going to have because I have massive amounts of invasive plants in my yard. And she was like, what kind of invasives do you have? Yeah.

Kat (37:51)
Okay, yeah.

Perfect. That's

Tiffany (38:07)
I know, I know. Yes.

Kat (38:07)
exactly the response you want. Not like, okay. She's like, ⁓ me more. Yeah.

Tiffany (38:13)
What are you dealing with? Yeah, ⁓ so that's like one of my big ones right now. But then, you know, when I moved to DCS, I'm sure when you moved ⁓ to Austin, it's like, I don't know, did you know anybody when you moved to Austin? Did you know anybody there?

Kat (38:14)
Yeah.

I yeah,

uh, yeah, I had a couple of friends here already and then, you know, I moved here for my then boyfriend. Yeah. Which, yeah, that's another story, but yeah.

Tiffany (38:36)
Okay.

Okay, that's right.

Yeah,

Because you said it was how long ago? Eight years? Okay. Yeah, so when I... Okay, when I moved to DC, I had one acquaintance and I was like 21 and two 70 year old family members who let me stay with them, which was nice. Woo! ⁓ But yeah, and then, but then at the end of a decade, I had a super solid community. So I was like, how did I do that? Like,

Kat (38:45)
Eight years, I think, yeah.

September.

Wow. That's fantastic. Yeah.

I was

20. Yeah, but yeah.

Tiffany (39:14)
Yeah,

that helps. ⁓ But I realized like I worked at it. I worked really hard at forming a community. And for me, that looked like I started with groups that were totally open to anybody. And that meant you get the gamut. You get whoever wants to show up. And there were some pretty serious regulars. ⁓ And usually it meant being hit on a lot and uncomfortable, uncomfortably.

Kat (39:19)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, as a young

woman, yeah, absolutely.

Tiffany (39:43)
as yes,

yes. ⁓ But for me that was Couchsurfing and Meetup groups. Yeah, they were awesome. I don't know if they're still a thing, but...

Kat (39:48)
Yes, couchsurfing was great, yeah.

I

think their website was such trash, you know.

Tiffany (39:55)
my

God. Yeah. I hope it hasn't changed. It was so good. Yes. You're like, wait a minute. Yeah. There's no app. Yeah. Yes. But this was like, they had local meetups with Couchsurfing. So I got to know a bunch of the couchsurfers who lived in DC. And then that led to like smaller invitations with the same group, but like a smaller subset of us.

Kat (39:58)
I know, I hope it's still as hard to use and you're like.

Grainy is that photo. Yeah. It's just a web browser. That's like geo cities. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiffany (40:23)
And then I found a house with roommates and that led to a really tight-knit group of people. I actually got lucky with that. Um, cause actually one of my best friends still, I met her there. Um, I met a lot of people through work. So I worked at a coffee shop, super helpful to work at like a service job. Yeah. Cause I'd walk around that neighborhood and it would just be like, hi, hi, hi, hi, you know.

Kat (40:39)
Coffee shops are the best. Yeah. Cause you meet-

clients. Yeah. Yes.

You get regulars and then you also have your colleagues who are cool. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of these beta subs who want to be president.

Tiffany (40:50)
Yes. Yes. And creative and interesting. Yeah. And in DC you needed that because you're like, otherwise you're like, what the hell?

That's exactly why it's that 20 year old in a suit. Yeah. but then I did get an office job and I actually, you know, I worked really hard to eventually like finally go to the, happy hours and stuff. And I made really good friends there. Two of my best friends currently were from there. and I also volunteered.

Kat (41:06)
Yeah, I know. Dude.

yeah.

Tiffany (41:28)
So that was a big one for me because I met one of my closest friends while I was in DC, but we had to go through that awkward stage of volunteering together for like a year before we actually were like, hey, I like you.

Kat (41:38)
Yeah. Yes.

Tiffany (41:41)
Let's hang out. And then we've joked about it since then. And I became the initiator. So for these little subgroups of friends that I had, I...

Kat (41:47)
Yes.

Tiffany (41:54)
was, I would say, the biggest planner of everyone. I'm trying to think. I had some other friends who planned, but I was gung-ho about it. And I think that's really important, is you have to have that person. If you don't have it, you might have to become it. ⁓ But I also thought about, you kind of have to treat making friends like dating. It's actually very similar. There are a bunch of... ⁓

Kat (41:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Tiffany (42:21)
memes that I was looking on Instagram about making mom friends is dating basically. ⁓ But you can try apps so Bumble has a friends option. I did try that a little bit but not much. Have you tried that?

Kat (42:30)
Yeah, meet up at, yeah.

I think I did, like they had one where as a couple you could like meet other couples.

Tiffany (42:41)
Okay, interesting.

Kat (42:43)
But I think Ravi and I maybe tried it and, or like one of our friends told us they tried it and they're like, yeah. And then it was like, never saw him again, you know.

Tiffany (42:51)
Yeah, which I think happens a lot, but sometimes you get lucky and you're just, I consider that type of thing just sort of like spreading your wings. Like you're probably not going to find your best friend from a Bumble app, but you're practicing. Yes.

Kat (43:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's baseball practice. that's what my

therapist is always like. So all those people who are like, I can't date right now because I got to work on myself. It's like, no, because then when you meet someone that you really want to be in a relationship with, you're going to have no skills. So if you want to play in the big game, you got to go to practice. So and it's true with friendships, too. It's like not everything has to be a knock it out of the park. Ball game, sometimes it's just base hitting to learn how to base hit.

Tiffany (43:25)
I love that.

Yes. Yes.

Kat (43:37)
And like, if you

Tiffany (43:37)
Totally.

Kat (43:38)
can have a conversation in a low stakes environment, you can build the best friendship by learning like, okay, well, that isn't the kind of person I want to hang out with, or that's not how I want to feel when I'm with people, or we don't have the same interests or things like, like, you can be like, okay, so let's find some boundaries and,

Tiffany (43:51)
huh. Yeah.

like let

me relearn how to talk after COVID. Small talk. Uh-huh.

Kat (43:59)
Yes, after COVID or deal with stimuli. Yeah. Like

there's a radio on over here and there's somebody talking over here and I have to concentrate on this conversation. Yeah. Yeah. That was hard for me.

Tiffany (44:10)
Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. ⁓ And I also, I would advise to try not to take anything personally for that exact reason. Because it's like, I've met a lot of people throughout the years and it just wasn't the right time. It's just like dating. It's like it wasn't on the right time. It wasn't the right... Yeah, exactly.

Kat (44:21)
100%. Yes.

Yep.

The lighting was bad. Yeah, who knows?

I found a lot when I was younger that I would meet someone and they would annoy the shit out of me and they would end up being my best friend. Like was something about like, we're so quick to dismiss people now. And again, I think we don't have forced interactions like we used to, but like I have.

Tiffany (44:42)
huh. Yes.

Yes, we are.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (44:59)
develop some really, really good friendships with people that are like, my God, this person. And then been like, my God, this person, you know.

Tiffany (45:03)
Yes, totally. Yeah, Joey

totally annoyed the shit out of me on our second date. He said something that just was so rude. And of course I was back then like, ugh, rude. And we ended up getting married. You know, it's like, yes.

Kat (45:15)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. And now you're like, get his humor now. Yeah. Yeah. You

have to, you have to remember that they're like, and water them. You have to water the relationship and give it plant food. All these metaphors, baseball practice and growing plants are how community building works. Yeah. It's not going to, you know, you're not going to have a 50 year old oak tree if you don't start from an acorn, right?

Tiffany (45:25)
Give people a little bit of grace, yeah.

Yes!

Yes. Uh-huh. Totally. ⁓

Totally, And it's also good to make the first move, like I said, like be the inviter. And actually, another tip is use the shotgun approach. My friend when I was on OkCupid, she was like, I do the shotgun approach. I just message as many people as are slightly interesting to me and just see what works because half of them aren't even going to message you back. Most of them you're not going to be interested in, but you never know.

Kat (45:50)
Yes.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

That was my, I told my friends, I will go on a first date with almost anyone, at least once, you know, but yeah, a friend of mine was like, did you have success when you were on online dating? And I was like, well, yeah, like I made a lot of friendships, you know, I definitely had relationships that came out of online dating. ⁓ Married one, you know, not that that was success, but yeah, like

Tiffany (46:17)
Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, same.

Kat (46:36)
And she was like, oh, it's because you're prettier than me. I was like, no, it's because I swipe right more because she's like, I need a specific height, age, you know, look. Yeah. And I was like, I just, if it was funny and they could write complete sentences, I was like, cool, let's talk. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiffany (46:41)
Yeah.

god, that's too much, yeah.

right? Because you literally never know. You just never know. You

never know what who you're actually going to click with because Joe honestly wasn't he was my type in a lot of ways but in a lot of ways he wasn't like he was pretty quiet and I was like I can't do quiet that's what I kept saying to myself and then I'm like wait there are benefits to quiet okay yes exactly

Kat (47:08)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Still waters run deep.

Yeah, I mean

that, yeah, I think, and maybe that's a good tip is, is again, like you were saying, don't have expectations. Think I, thought I saw a really great dating advice thing. think it was NPR had about like, how to have a good date. It's like, make it about them, not about you. Ask them questions.

Tiffany (47:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, that was a big one, was like become a listener instead of... yeah. Yes. Totally. Totally.

Kat (47:45)
Yeah, be interested. Yeah, rather than trying to be interesting, be interested. And yeah, that

I think that's a huge lost skill that we've forgotten, like we're on display so much that we forget, you don't always have to be, ⁓ look at what I can do. know,

Tiffany (47:59)
Mm-hmm.

star of the show. Yes, exactly.

Yeah, and I think also for me one big thing when I whenever I do feel lonely just being in public even if I'm not like in a group even if they're yes just being in public will almost instantly make me feel better. I don't feel maybe like I have a community but I feel better. I feel more involved more close to people. Yeah.

Kat (48:14)
Just sitting in our coffee shop. Yep.

Yeah. We're primed for that as human beings. We're social creatures. I

mean, barring extreme people, you know, but even like if you have social anxiety, which is increasingly common exposure therapy, you go have a conversation with the person at checkout at the, you know, grocery store. I be annoyed in line, you know, and strike up a conversation with the person that you're.

Tiffany (48:38)
Yeah. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yep.

Kat (48:54)
they're probably annoyed too, you know, and if

Tiffany (48:55)
Yes.

Kat (48:56)
they respond you might find it interesting. Like I was in line for the COVID vaccine, ⁓ you know, during COVID and overheard somebody talking about something or I was explaining to whoever I was in line with that like, they used to think that the word barbecue came from the French, from the Baalb.

which would mean like from beard to tail. So it's like the whole pig, but it's actually not that that was just like a, and I was talking about that and some guy in line over here was like, oh yeah, it's actually an African phrase that or something. And he's like a professor of linguistics at the university. And, know, I was like, oh yeah. And I was like, oh, look you up. And I, I didn't, because it was, it was a little flirty and I think I was there with my husband. So was a little like, maybe not, but you know,

Tiffany (49:25)
Okay.

my god. ⁓

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.

Kat (49:51)
You don't know, like,

Tiffany (49:52)
Yeah.

Kat (49:54)
I think people get kind of annoyed when you like inject yourself into conversations, but sometimes, you know.

Throw the dart and sometimes it'll hit the target, you Be willing to look embarrassing.

Tiffany (50:05)
Yeah, totally.

Yes, and be okay with other people being embarrassing. That's not really the way I want to say it, but be open to other people. At least a little bit. And it takes practice, actually, I noticed. I used to be super closed off, and I've just kind of let down my guard a little bit, but that's a very vulnerable thing to do, so it takes time.

Kat (50:14)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, let them be quirky. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I... Yeah.

Yeah, it does

and self-trust and self-confidence. But again, that's a self-feeding system. The more you do it. That's what I tell people who are like, if you're afraid of rejection, go get rejected all the time. Go try to join the group. And if they don't want you, revel in it because you will become so much more resilient and it'll make your next community so much stronger.

Tiffany (50:35)
Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, totally. I had a professor whose goal was to get rejected by 100 publications every year. And I was like, I love that.

Kat (51:02)
Apparently the statistic for getting a book published by a publisher is 200 rejections. The guy who wrote, I think it was a Pulitzer Prize winner a couple of years ago called Les, he was like, I had a spreadsheet and I kept track of every single, and when I got the 200, I got accepted. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. yeah, be, say the stupid thing.

Tiffany (51:19)
Yeah, that's what he does. Whoa, that's so interesting. Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (51:32)
You know, and, and learn from it if like, it ends up that that's like a really kind of bad opinion that you got, you know, don't take it personally, like maybe do some self reflection and yeah, there are things you shouldn't say out loud. ⁓ but

Tiffany (51:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, or

do. Like in The Guardian, the woman who authored the article was very introspective because she was annoyed that her neighbor had called her out for not folding her recycling boxes correctly. And finally she was like, all right, he's had every right to call me out. This is what it means to be part of the community.

Kat (52:03)
Yeah. Oops. Yeah.

That's correct. Yeah. You're

not a Karen. Yeah. I think that's another thing is we are so obsessed with like, this person's a Karen because she, it's like, or, know, when you're in a situ, like be the Karen, not like in a selfish entitled way, but be the Karen for other people and be like, Hey, you can't treat her like that. You know, which

Tiffany (52:24)
Right.

Right. Yes.

Kat (52:38)
will get you a lot of flack, because that's like a, but like, or, you know, you can't behave like that. You know, be that Karen and be like, that's not.

Tiffany (52:39)
huh.

Yeah.

Did I ever tell you about the guy who called out somebody for harassing me? my God. It was... Yeah. No, it was crazy. And this was like before the Me Too movement actually. So it wasn't, it didn't feel like a performance at all from him. Yeah, because this guy was, I was walking and this random guy on the street like yelled.

Kat (52:50)
No. Please. Did you get his number? Can we call him? Can he teach a seminar?

Right. He just did it. Yeah.

Tiffany (53:16)
out something about my legs, my nice legs or whatever. And this guy was just like, Hey, that's harassment. And it was the first time I'd ever heard anyone say and probably the last time actually anyone say anything like that. And the Me Too movement, think exposed a lot more, but I'm not necessarily saying it changed a whole lot.

Kat (53:30)
was, yeah.

And it's a thing. would like recognize your privileges in a space. Because yeah, as women, like I've called men out. Like I had a guy yell at me from the street and he couldn't get my attention. I was ignoring him. And he was like, hey, nice legs. And I said, excuse me, like made him repeat it. He's like, nice legs. said, that makes me really uncomfortable.

Tiffany (53:38)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (53:58)
and walked away and he looked like I had just chatted his Cheerios. Like he was, because nobody had ever told him like, can't just like, I'm on the street. Like this is not the appropriate venue for telling me I have nice legs, you know, that can be a nice compliment in the right circumstances. Not to a stranger woman you don't know who's alone on the street. Yes. And it's something I, I will say to like, if a man approaches me,

Tiffany (54:02)
⁓ my god.

Right.

Right.

that you're yelling at. Right.

Kat (54:27)
When I'm alone, I will be like, stop. I'm a woman alone. Do not approach a woman alone that you don't know. ⁓ Like panhandlers, you know, I'm like, for both of our safety, you don't know what kind of pepper spray I could be carrying for you. I'm a nice girl, but you know, like it's not safe for either of us. This is not the appropriate venue for this. And like, I know you can have good, it's like, if there's someone with me, okay, we could talk, but like,

Tiffany (54:29)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Right.

Kat (54:57)
because of the state of the world and how women are, you know, victimized, it is not safe for you to catcall me. Like for anyone. Yeah.

Tiffany (55:04)
Right.

Yeah, it was really amazing and I just turned around and I looked at the guy and he would barely even give me eye contact but I was like, thank you. I was just like so shocked and I was like, thank you for saying that. And yeah, that kind of shit doesn't happen that much, sadly. I try to be that for other people. I'm not necessarily successful but.

Kat (55:15)
Yeah.

Well, well, yeah. Yeah. It's just, well, the thing is

something they point out is that men who will cat call don't do it in front of other men.

Tiffany (55:36)
Interesting this guy did but yeah, I could see that

Kat (55:37)
⁓ yeah, I mean,

like if that's the thing, like my mom was telling my dad about a story where somebody was hitting on her and my dad was like incredulous.

Tiffany (55:45)
⁓ that's interesting.

Kat (55:47)
Or

maybe I was telling a story and he like turned to my mom and he's like, did that ever happen? And she's like, not when you're around, but yeah.

Tiffany (55:54)
Okay,

yeah, if you're with a guy, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kat (55:56)
Yes, yeah, they

don't do it in front of other men, which is why men are so shocked. They're like, well, he couldn't be a rapist. He's, you know, he's not like that around me. It's like, I know they pick their victims and they corner them and that, you know, it's, it's funny to them or it's thrilling for them.

Tiffany (56:00)
Ugh. Disgusting.

Right?

Right.

Right, and you're

claimed if you're with a guy. I once got offered in the Middle East to be traded for some goats because I was traveling with a guy and he was like, I don't know what to say to that.

Kat (56:16)
Yep.

The answer is no. Keep your hands to yourself. She's not for sale. Yeah, I, know, and yeah, that can be hard when you're in like a culturally different situation too. Cause it, yeah, like calling someone out for inappropriate behavior when it's not inappropriate in their culture is a whole can of worms. Like that's anti-feminist. And they're like, we don't have feminism here. Yeah. ⁓

Tiffany (56:30)
He was like, what the hell is happening?

No, I know. Yeah.

Right. I know, I know. Yeah.

Yeah, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah,

and so, yeah, so the takeaway here that we talked about in the beginning is like, a village does not fall into your lap, which is what I think I kind of thought that for a while. I felt very much like, ugh, why isn't anybody helping me? ⁓ Which I don't even want to use that tone because it is

Kat (57:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

Tiffany (57:21)
freaking true, you know, it's like we don't help each other. Yeah, right. ⁓

Kat (57:22)
It is, and it's fair, especially for mothers, especially for mothers. Yes. There are,

there should be structures in place to help women. Like villages, not necessarily just always organic, right? I think there are like government assistance should be a village. is not in this country. It should be a base for basic help.

Tiffany (57:31)
Yeah. Totally.

Yes.

Right. Yeah.

Yep. Mm-hmm. You have energy. yes, you're not focusing all your energy on making sure you can afford food on your table. You're focusing on things that actually matter. Yeah. Yep.

Kat (57:52)
where and you can build community from there if you if you are con yes if

Yep.

Right. Relationships.

Yeah, that's, and I would also say, yeah, you're right. A village, a community doesn't fall into your lap. You have to work on it. Even if there is an existing structure, right? joining a social or yeah, joining like a social sports league, right? That's an existing structure. You build a community by being there for each other and caring about each other. You don't, it's like, if you show up and you're like,

Tiffany (58:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kat (58:32)
Nobody at kickball likes me and it's like well were you cool? Did you talk to anyone? You know like did you did you invite them over after did you buy them a drink? You know like

Tiffany (58:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, and what I read was like, commute- you can't even always call like a sports group community because if you're always competing with each other and you have resentment of each other, whatever, that's not really a community. Like the hashers feel very different because I don't think you're really like competing against each other.

Kat (58:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, you're

not supposed to actually, you're supposed to get called out for that. So it's, it's supposed to be the stated goals of hashing. Did I tell you this? There's four of them. It's to work off weekend hangovers, to promote physical fitness among the members, to work up a thirst for beer and to make the old people feel young again. And I call people out all the time. I'm like, did you make that old person feel young again? I don't think so.

Tiffany (59:05)
⁓ okay. Yeah.

No, maybe you did. I don't know.

no you didn't.

huh. huh.

Amazing.

That's awesome.

Kat (59:31)
Yep, you reorganize your priorities. So there are four rules of hashing and you're breaking one of them. yeah, people hate when I do that, but yeah. But yeah, let's it's not supposed to be competitive and we're supposed to make fun of people who make it competitive. Yeah.

Tiffany (59:36)
my god, I love that. That's very cool. Now I know. I do the same shit.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and another big thing is like having a community is annoying.

Kat (59:55)
100%.

Tiffany (59:56)
Like I think people don't realize that, but people are gonna annoy the shit out of you, and that's part of it. That's just part of it.

Kat (59:59)
huh. Yes.

And yes, you have to develop resilience against annoyance. And again, because we live in this catered algorithm driven world where everything you touch is curated for you and pleasing for you and the opinions just reiterate what you already believe in a true community, you're going to be challenged and you're going to be like,

Tiffany (1:00:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. huh.

Yeah, like why are you so dramatic? Go away. Yeah. Yes, yes. Why do you always ask me so much? Yes. Yeah, and there are obviously boundaries are perfectly acceptable and there are people you don't want to be in community with, but even with the best communities, people are people. So they're going to be annoying.

Kat (1:00:27)
Yes. Or why are you so loud? Or why are you so... Why do you breathe like that? Yes.

Yes.

Right.

Right. And again,

a purity test is the death of community, which is what they're talking about with politics, right? Like you have to follow our beliefs 100 % or you're not part of the community. And if we all think the same thing, we can't build community. That's not how it works. There's no trust there. It's just an assumption. Yeah.

Tiffany (1:00:50)
Mm-hmm, totally, totally, totally.

Get out.

Right. Yep. Totally. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I did have an open question at the end, but we don't necessarily have to answer it. But it was sort of like people tout, I think it's going to remain open because it's a big one, but people tout community as like the solution to climate change. And I was kind of like, is it? Could it be? I don't know. It's interesting.

Kat (1:01:14)
Okay.

Okay.

In some ways I could see that. Yeah. I mean, we talked about organizing, community organizing, right? So

Tiffany (1:01:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (1:01:41)
I do think that our, fractured nature of our society in the West currently contributes to climate change. because, you know, if we all just didn't buy stuff from Amazon ever again, like imagine, you know, if, if, if we made a community effort to not buy fast fashion, you know, or

Tiffany (1:02:10)
Mm-hmm.

Kat (1:02:11)
If we were able to organize around those things in a way that made us, you know, feel unified. Yeah, you can, you could stop a lot of things. You could stop if, if everyone trusted each other enough to say, you know, we care about this thing rather than just like, well, I don't believe in it. Cause you know,

Okay, let's agree on one thing. We want the air to be breathable. Okay.

Tiffany (1:02:38)
Right.

We wanted to not be so goddamn hot.

Kat (1:02:42)
Right. And we can all agree to those things and we could organize in community around them instead of being, well, my politics say that I don't believe it. It's like, okay, well, who cares about what your politics say? Like, let's find a solution. You know, if we could come together in a non-fractured way and be like, all right, we all agree. We want the air to be breathable. What does that look like? I don't care about politics. just, you know, what is, how do we do that? Right.

Tiffany (1:02:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

There's no morality test here. Yeah.

Kat (1:03:12)
We just want breathable air and drinkable water. How do we do that? And community does, when you trust people, you can call them out and let them call you out.

Tiffany (1:03:14)
Yep. Yep. Totally.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And also, you know, a lot of what we heard is like, start local. Like everything is local. So if you have no local...

Kat (1:03:29)
So.

100%. Yeah.

Yeah.

Tiffany (1:03:39)
Where we, yeah, where do we start?

Kat (1:03:40)
What are you gonna do? Yeah.

Tiffany (1:03:44)
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. mean, yeah, I think overall I just want to make sure people don't blame themselves or like feel like they're alone in this because I think everyone kind of feels it.

Kat (1:03:55)
Our societal, again, like I said, our societal structure in the United States for a variety of reasons. I don't think it's a grand conspiracy, but I do think it helps oligarchs thrive is fracturing us, know, dividing our attention, keeping us from trusting each other, keeping us from loving each other, keeping us isolated. These are all things that are byproducts of

Tiffany (1:04:04)
Mm-hmm. Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kat (1:04:21)
a lot of things going on in our society and it only makes it better for the people who can profit off of it.

Tiffany (1:04:27)
Yes, a hundred percent. And like I said, community building can be actually just for profit. yeah. Yeah. So.

Kat (1:04:29)
time.

Yes, which is a danger as well, yeah.

So

yeah, anti-consumerist community building. Go talk to a stranger in a safe setting.

Tiffany (1:04:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yep. Sally Forth. Yeah, I mean, hopefully that was helpful in some way, but it's fun to talk about. Yeah. Yeah.

Kat (1:04:50)
Yes.

It feels good to talk about it. Yeah.

And yeah, I do think I blame myself. like, I should go do more community service or I should. And it is hard work. And, you know, I am tired. Like, it's not like there hasn't been stuff going on in my life that has made it really hard to like want to be vulnerable or like ask people questions about themselves. I'm like, sorry, guys, I'm asking myself questions for a minute. ⁓

Tiffany (1:05:05)
⁓ totally.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kat (1:05:25)
But yeah, it's also the structures that are in place prevent us from doing these things as well. It is different than 10 years ago or 15 years ago. And yeah, those things that should be automatic.

Tiffany (1:05:31)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Kat (1:05:43)
childcare and medical care and those things don't exist for us right now and if you're having to struggle to survive no building community is not easy so yeah

Tiffany (1:05:45)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep, exactly. Cool. All right. So I know actually over an hour. So what's ⁓ that? This is our last episode of the season.

Kat (1:06:00)
Yep, see you an hour once again.

Yeah, we're gonna take a summer break and come back after Labor Day, right? Yeah, I think we might try to do our monthly Patreon chitchats if you want to subscribe to that at patreon.com. yeah, next season, I'm excited about I have tentatively named it Groceries are Too Damn High, which is a callback to the Rent is Too Damn High party in New York.

Tiffany (1:06:12)
Yeah.

I think that's the plan,

you

Kat (1:06:37)
But I think we're going to discuss food systems and still keeping a climate focus or eco sustainability and, you know. ⁓

Tiffany (1:06:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

we might dip our toes into the organic food discussion, but that's like whole can of worms show. We'll see.

Kat (1:06:53)
100 %? Yeah. Can of worms. Yep. Yeah.

Cause I, I want to learn about that too. Cause I'm like, I don't, I have heard things, but I'd like to do some more solid research about it. I'd like to have a more informed opinion. So, but we're to talk about like why food is expensive. Like whether certain things you could do at home, like raising chickens, is that better on a number of levels? Like kind of go back to our granola rating.

Tiffany (1:07:05)
Yeah, I've heard lots of things, yeah. Uh-huh. Totally.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, like is that is it more affordable because you know all you like have the inside Knowledge of like a lot of the shit is not more affordable. Actually, it was just crazy so

Kat (1:07:22)
on some of these things.

Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Or better for you, you know, the food's not more nutritious or something, you know, yeah, so we'll talk about that. Yeah, so get ready to get hungry.

Tiffany (1:07:39)
Right, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Cool.

Yeah. Yeah, buddy.

Kat (1:07:52)
Yeah. But yeah, have a good summer.

Tiffany (1:07:56)
Yes, you too. You have any fun plans?

Kat (1:07:59)
I have so many trips, yeah.

Tiffany (1:08:01)
Yeah, okay. Forgot you travel.

Kat (1:08:03)
I,

uh, you know, all this, yeah, yeah, I know I'm a hypocrite, but okay. Fantastic. Yeah. Builds a community at the beach.

Tiffany (1:08:06)
I'm like going to the beach and that's it. I don't even like the beach, but it's fine. It's all good. There

we go. There we go. make best friends. Like Charlie. Charlie will, but anyway. Love you. Bye.

Kat (1:08:14)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening, community. We love you.