So people have said, like, oh, let's go back to how our grandparents did it. And that actually would solve our plastic problem. And I do agree with that, to a large extent tin cans and glass bottles. Exactly. However, do you think we can manage going back to the good parts of our grandparents life? Because let's be honest, they weren't all good. If women also work outside the home, there is there is my issue. Hi, Tiffany. Hi, Kat. How are you? I'm fine. We chatted a little bit about or a little bit before the episode started. Someone else is there to say? Well, I mean, I think we could just say, did you lose much sleep over last week's plastic recycling episode, which we recorded several weeks ago for the record? Yeah, it was actually like two weeks ago. Yeah. 1,000%. I did. Oh, my gosh, I've been seeing it everywhere. I like, schooled my parents on it the other day. I was like, this is awful level. Oh, like, they're like, Yeah, I know. It's not a secret. You know, everybody knows this. It's just Yeah, well, the funny thing is, I didn't know how bad it was, right? I think it's like, it's really easy to hear stuff and be like, oh, people might be exaggerating, or turn a blind eye because it's like, I don't know, easier. Yeah, to just be in it. I mean, the American life is based on complacency or busyness in your own specialized area so much that you don't, you can't concentrate on other things that are really big deals, you know, right. Now, I mean, we're bombarded all the time with so much information. In our media, diet, culture, you know, that, it's really hard to, to care about, because you feel like you have to care about everything. So it's really hard to care about, like a single thing. You get fatigued, you know, it's like, how many? How many organizations? Can I be a part of, or participate in? Individually, they just kind of all cancel each other out. And so this is just another one of those fatigue situations. Totally. And you're not really making an impact if you're trying to do everything. So yeah, I know, it's like, I could be a warrior for plastic or against plastic, to the exclusion of everything else. And some people are, and some people aren't. Yeah, and I think there are a lot of, you know, people who are that way about, about various causes. And I think that's a legitimate lifestyle choice to make. It's just, it's hard. It's really hard. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we're gonna, we're gonna get back into like, some of the horror of it all. But I do I did find a glimmer of hope for everybody. Oh, goody. We're gonna end on a glimmer of hope. Yes, it's my favorite one. I couldn't handle it without finding at least some potential chance that we're not all completely doomed. Yeah. Yeah. Call me a positive person. An optimist. I, I believe that you are, and I will follow you into the sunlight. Exactly. By just we have to go into the depths of hills. And before we do that, I guess we should introduce ourselves and welcome to the podcast. This is greening up my act. Yeah. Welcome. Yeah. I'm Kat Cox. And that's Tiffany. Verbeck. Yeah, that's me. We're two marketing writers. And we examine Green Living via Green Living products and systems and things that promise make big promises, and we examine those promises and figure out if they're realistic, or if they're green Hui, as we call them, which is junk, meaning marketing speak that hides its true possibilities or capabilities. Yes. And we spend our days writing marketing fluff. And we know pretty well that's really true. Okay, and really helpful. Yeah, we just make it pretty. Yeah. And sound nice. Yeah. Yeah, but a lot of this stuff. And the the green quote unquote, green space is who we are, who we, as we've discovered, although some of it I'm surprised, like some of it is pleasantly surprising, because that's our goal. We're not trying to call everything out and find all the terrible things. We're really trying to find stuff that works for people and the environment, and is better for everybody involved. So that's our ultimate goal is to find the good stuff on all fronts. Agreed. Yep. So last week, we started down the dark path of now we've been calling it the four horsemen of the recycle apocalypse and we found out the first three were more like My Little Ponies. Aluminum glass and paper are actually not the same as what We're referring to death as death is plastic. Right? Plastic is death. And it really is. And last week, you covered the inauspicious beginnings, I would say, yes, personal responsibility, plastic recycling, what I will call it rather than corporate responsibility not making plastic, which should be the ideal is finding an alternative to plastic instead of just forcing consumers to face the brunt of the damage. Right, and putting it on our shoulders and telling us outright that it's our fault that this all this plastic waste. I mean, it's a crisis. Now we're in a global credit plastic crisis. And that's all these companies have tried to convince people like you and me, then it is our fault. And just put it in an opt in and you'll be fine. It's not we're not lazy. That's not why this is happening. Right? Yeah. So we kind of went into the history last week. And this week, we saw that I had to turn this into a two parter. This was our first two parter ever because it was so much. Yeah. And I really wanted to give it the time that it deserved. So yeah, we're kind of talking today about like, more like where we are today. And going forward and trying to find some possible solutions. Yes. So we're going to explore those. But first, I have a couple new sources. Great that I found since I last chatted with you, because I did a little bit more of a deep dive into a couple of things. So Greenpeace, I have like a mixed feelings about Greenpeace, but they they do have some opinions that I agree with. So they talk about the United States is stance on the plastics Treaty, which I will get into. There's a plastics chain. Yes. I'm gonna get into it. non-proliferation. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, no nuclear plastics. And then Scientific America also, or Scientific American also talked about the plastic straws at BBC. I use them just sort of like a general should. They'd had an article about, should we burn or bury plastic? The week had an article, should you even bother recycling plastic? I watched a John Oliver episode. What is his show called? John? Last week? Last week? Last Week Tonight? Yeah. I watched one of his episodes on plastic, and I highly recommend it. And one more website is waste dive. They have a lot of really interesting articles that they link. So they talked about packaging legislation. Okay. The New Yorker had an article that came out just a couple of days ago, maybe even like, three or four days ago. Well, plastics are poisoning us. Oh, boy, I know, and said that. I didn't use a whole lot. But it was a really good article, and we'll link it so it's definitely worth a read. So I have a quick correction from last week. So the Guardian article that I cited, about, I said that in 25 years, that plastic production is supposed to triple. Yeah, but it's actually by 2060 is what? Oh, okay. But well, okay, so that's 35 years, 37 years. That's another decade. But you're right, so great. I might it might we might hit the goal before then. Right? Yes. Yeah. So where we are today kind of started in 2017, when maybe a lot of people know about this, but China had a more or less a ban of importing plastics. So basically, China used to take about 60% of the plastic waste exported by g7 countries. g7 is Canada, France, US, Germany, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom. So China would take that plastic in and then use it to create products. And but then they got fed up. And they say that it's because they started to take environmental protection seriously, that they basically banned. Most plastic waste to come from coming into their country. So they went from 60% to like 10, less than 10% of the world waste. And they say the heart this is just ironic to me, because they say we can't take your plastics to recycle them because the harm to the groundwater and the harm to the air have big economic costs. So basically, like our trash from here was piling up over there and hurting their environment and their economy, in turn. Makes sense. Yeah. Right. So this is all I'm getting this all from the famous Financial Times article about what this Chinese policy is called the National sword policy, which is Like, Oh, wow, that's so very on brand China. Well done. Exactly. So the this Financial Times article calls recycling an industry this is a, quote an industry plagued by allegations of smuggling, corruption and pollution. Okay. And it's suddenly been thrust into the spotlight because China was like, screw this. Like, we're not taking this crap literal crap from you guys anymore. So that's pretty interesting. I was like, Hi corruption and smuggling in recycling. Fascinating because we all think recycling, it's like, friendly bunnies and happy rainbows, but parent, right? Yeah. So this created a global crisis in plastic waste when China was like, No, thank you. So why is this such a big problem? I mean, 60% I told you, but how about half of the plastic that's intended for recycling is traded overseas. Right. And California exports two thirds of their plastic. Okay. So that is, that was mind blowing to me, because I did not realize that we were I didn't realize that that's that's what was happening. It's like a It's a global issue. It's not just, yeah, we think about our landfills, but it's truly not our landfills, that it's being impacted. So the plastic instead of going to China, it went to Malaysia, Malaysia became the new biggest importer of plastic. So all these other countries were like, hey, maybe we should try this. Thailand. In this article, they talked about lots of falsified classic customs declarations, police raids, corruption, illegal processing plants. Yikes. Yep. In Vietnam, it says bales of plastic piled up at ports. And so the country declared that it wouldn't become the landfill of the world and stopped issuing licenses for recycling imports. Okay. I mean, it's like this crime drama. I know. It's we are now a true crime podcast. We're gonna have to be re Yeah, it's really crazy. And I think now, I think Malaysia is still the largest importer. But what happens is there's open air burning, I think this is the John Oliver episode where they basically just burn this because it there's just too much of it. Yeah. So either people are trying to run sort of illegitimate recycling processing plants that have no environmental restrictions on them at all, or they're just burning it in the air. And people are talking about how it's like, it hurts your eyes. It hurts your head. It's yeah. It's like burning tires. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So this is just all there. And the John Oliver episode had some, some footage from I can't remember where they they might have been in Thailand, but it's just it's really wild. Because the guy pulled out bags from like, Texas. Or like, I don't remember where exact Yeah, somewhere like, Vermont or something. And so even this was a problem, even before China was, or China decided to ban imports, because even before then it just, it just made it apparent. But even before then, only 10% of the plastic in the US was being recycled. That's still Yeah. So yeah, so now, so that just made it super obvious. So where are we today little bit about where we are today. So I mentioned the plastics treaty. So the 2024 International plastics treaty is a current work in progress. Okay. Which is kind of exciting. Right? Well, I mean, yeah, I was gonna say, except for the country that recently pulled out of the Paris Climate Accords. Well, so on that note, so this is the whole treaty is a global effort to reduce plastic pollution among 175 nations. So it's a huge endeavor. Global. Yeah. And the US isn't involved. But unfortunately, Biden is not really fulfilling or following through with his promise to, you know, focus on climate change, because the US only supports voluntary reductions, rather than forced reductions, right. Because we would be I mean, it will cripple our economy. It would, theoretically, yeah, I mean, other countries are doing it, and they're figuring out a way. Yeah. So yeah, so they we only so and it's just an industry thing. It's just trying to make sure that the big oil and big plastic guys are happy. You No. So we also focus heavily on plastics recycling. So we think like, as always, recycling is this magic wand that we can wave. Turns out it's not. No. Yeah. So Greenpeace says that the US needs to focus on reduction and wide widespread systems of refill and reuse. Okay. And package free solutions, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Yeah. Because like you order something from Amazon. You're like, how? Why do I need 40 ounces of plastic on a single? Yeah, yeah. Lighter or something? Yeah. Like six bags wrapped around one single pencil. Yeah, you're like, really? I think the pencils gonna be okay. I just don't make it. Yeah. Yeah. So they're saying so Greenpeace says we need the Biden administration to listen to the people, not the big consumer brands nor the petrochemical industry. All right, who has the money? Hmm. Yes. So there was a report from Lund University. That said, while governments are committing to action on climate change, and have signed up to initiatives tackling global plastic pollution, massive investments are being made to expand production capacity in the petrochemical sector. Not least in the Middle East, China and the USA. All right. Yeah, there is a petition you can sign if you're interested kind of thing from Greenpeace. I signed it. I was like, Yeah, I agree with this lease you could do yeah, we'll link it in case anybody's interested in signing it. So a couple of things I wanted to give you guys a heads up on was if you're Googling like plastic recycling, plastic waste in plastic pollution, you're gonna come up, you're gonna come upon a couple of things. One of them is called the Alliance to End plastic waste. Okay, this looks like a nonprofit, it looks legitimate their, their funding all of these different cleanup efforts and all this crazy stuff and recycling blah, blah, blah. They're definitely pushing recycling. So I had to do some digging. And I found out pretty quickly that this is a corporate group, with members from Exxon, shell, Dow, Chevron, Phillips, chemical, etc. Our favorites, all of our favorites. Exactly. This is basically like the most green washi of greenwashed I've ever seen. Well, okay. i You don't think there's any chance that it's them taking responsibility? On a level? You think? You think it really is in bad faith? i Yes. Okay, fair. Yes, I do. Because, because first off, they're pushing for recycling. Okay. Once again, it's recycling. Yeah. Plastic. They're they're funding I saw that they were funding like, student recycling something or other? Oh, okay. Yeah. Make the kids do it. Yeah. And it's like, that's not the solution here. Because, yeah, it's just not for so many reasons. As we've mentioned, it's not the solution. I mean, I would like to say, I'm sure there were some people who aren't completely corrupt and evil working at these corporations. Right. Why to health care? Yeah, of course. But I think probably the people at the top. No, they're not. They why? Why would they bother making the money? Yeah, exactly. And if they can get away with greenwashing it and pretending or saying cuz that's what they always do. That's what I've been reading is like, any company pretty much will say, Oh, yeah, we have all these green initiatives. And then once when they're pressured to do it, and then once the pressure lays off a complete background in them. Yeah. So I mean, not that there aren't good companies out there. But a lot of the time, that's what happens. So yeah, I don't I don't believe I don't buy it at all. So just if you run into Alliance to End plastic waste, just know what you're looking at. You can have fully a different opinion than me, but at least know who's who's funding it. So is recycling plastic environmentally better than producing new plastic? This is the big question, right? I keep shitting on recycling plastic. Why am I shitting on it? Okay, the answer that question is no. For two reasons. And yeah, probably more reasons than that. So the first one is Greenpeace morons. This is based on trying this isn't just Greenpeace. By the way. This is a guard from a Guardian article but they do warn Learn that plastics recycling shouldn't be included in a 2024 international plastics treaty. Okay, sorry already. They're just reading it, you know about the plastics treaty. So it shouldn't be included in that plastics treaty, because it makes recycling makes the plastic more toxic. Okay. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yes. And so there, it causes higher amounts of these toxins to be concentrated inside this plastic. So there's higher amounts of things like flavored flame retardants and benzene. Yikes. Yeah, etc. Other things, too. And so what Greenpeace says is, plastics are inherently incompatible with a circular economy. And I'll get into a little bit about a circular economy a little bit later. Because I didn't really know what that meant. Right? And, and second reason is it breaking plastic down to recycle, it creates microplastics and microplastics are not good for a number of reasons. I didn't really understand. I had heard the term 1000 times, but I didn't really understand why they were so bad. But it's basically like, they get into everything. And as mentioned, full of toxins. So they found one study found my microplastics in a placenta. Oh, my God. A human placenta God. Yes. So the exposure can happen before you're even born. Yeah, and I just think about all of Charlie's plastic bottles that we use my God. It's fine. But anyway, so when you? Yeah. So when you recycle it? Anywhere? This is a UK study says that anywhere between 6% to 13% of the plastic, plastic processed, could end up being released into water or the air as microplastics. Jesus. Okay. So. And like I mentioned, you can recycle plastic one to do time? What was it one to four? Less than a handful? 123 I think it was like, no, not very many times. And then it's got to go into landfill anyway. Right. So what's the point? Kind of? And I'll get into that in a little bit, actually, very soon, because I also looked into Dutch, like the the Netherlands because they're very proud of their recycling program. And I was like, is it actually as good as we think it is? Or as people think it is? And it turns out, just over because I remember I said, I went and everything was covered in plastic in the grocery store. Yeah, just like here. Yeah. And let's see, what did I look at? So I looked at a couple different sources, but all of them were Dutch, in you know, obviously, right now, of course. Yeah. I don't I didn't learn Dutch for this. But so just over half of plastic packaging used in the Netherlands in 2018 was recycled, which is better than the US but a lot possibly 50% is incinerated. I couldn't find the exact number on that. But a lot is incinerated. And this was even what my friends neighbor told me that. Like if Oh, if you don't, if we don't recycle it, we burn it for and use use it to create energy. Okay, like paralysis or whatever it's called. I don't know what it's called. But yeah, basically harnesses the energy. Okay. It turns out this is a super inefficient way to create energy. And it has about 25% efficiency compared to 55%. efficiency for gas fired power plants. Oh, okay. So it's like less than half. Okay. And when coal is phased out for generating electricity, incineration of unrecycled waste will be the most co2 intensive form of generation, which isn't great to say that once coal is gone, you'll be the worst thing for the environment, because coal is like the worst worst worst, right? Yes. It's being second is not not cool. Yeah. You don't want that silver medal. So in the in this BBC article that I read the UK environmental minister Theresa or Therese Coffey, I'm not sure how you say your name. She told the commons in environmental terms, it's generally better to bury plastic than to burn it. And this is a debate right? Yeah, she's saying that burying plastic is a is like a form of carbon capture. Yeah. because it's all going to be in there forever, literally forever, ever. Yeah. If you're thinking about like, I would say in I wouldn't say in environmental terms, I would say in greenhouse gas terms, right. Yeah. Which, yeah. But it's a different concept. But yeah, yeah. And that's part of the problem that I'm running into. And what I'm having a really hard time with is like one thing, impacts and other impacts. And other it's like, you can make progress in one way and totally make take 18 steps back and the other. Yeah, you know, the other side. So it's, it's really hard, but everything's connected. But I found that really interesting. And I was like, I'm so sorry, Dutch friends, but you're not as great as you think you are. I think we should probably own up to that. Not to mention, remember, I said it's a global problem. The plastic soup Foundation, which I believe is also Dutch, but just a website that I found, says the Netherlands is the largest exporter of plastic waste in Europe. Wow. And they're a tiny country. Wow. Okay. So they're, they're having the same origin heading the same problem? We are. Yeah. And it sucks, because I was like, maybe they have some solution. The Dutch? Yeah. I mean, obviously, they're doing better in terms of like, overall waste production. Management us is not doing well. But you know, they have a different mindset to it is it is very much like reduction first, but yeah, they're not like, I don't know. They're not perfect. And, yeah, there's still issues. Yeah. So that was kind of sad, but it's fine. The Dutch, the Dutch have been demoted. I know. One last thing. And then I'm going to get into my granola rating. Okay, but I'm going to do my granola rating before I go into, like, where do we go from here? Okay. And we're at 30 minutes. Hopefully, this doesn't take all night. But I think this is worth devoting some time to so basically, one last thing. He talks about chemical recycling, which is a different way you use heat or chemical solvents to break down plastics. And it turns into like an oil like mixture or the basic chemicals. And of course, industry leaders say that the mixture can be made back into plastic pellets. And that it's better than any other way that we recycle plastic. Yeah, but environmentalists say it's a distraction. So it's unknown. That's a very new thing. So maybe that will help in the future. I don't have that much faith. But you know, someone that I was reading said, we can't rule anything out. And that's true. Yeah. We'll keep on keepin on, I guess. My granola rating. Okay. I have a feeling I know what it's gonna be. Do you because are you going to say one? Yeah. Okay, zero. Well, that's the thing. I had to go with zero. We don't even have a word for that. But I found one. Oh, okay. I'm calling it waterlogged. I like that. It's like, it's basically the granola pack the great granola patch floating in the ocean. Yeah, so if you are new here, we rate each each system or product on a scale of one to five granolas and obviously crunchy granola is better than soggy granola. So one is soggy. But this is worse than soggy. Absolutely waterlogged. Because, one, the plastics and oil industry has lied to us for decades and plastic recycling is not sustainable economically or environmentally. Number two, the purpose of the plastics recycling industry is to prop up the industries to continue creating single use plastic and getting their products on the shelf. Right. It shouldn't be on the consumer to solve and these companies are making money and taking zero responsibility 100% Three, we can only recycle plastics a few times, maybe only once. Number four, it's a global issue. Western countries are shipping our plastic waste to less developed countries and polluting the hell out of their land and water contributing to the corruption creating a black market and not taking responsibility for any of our shit. So that's my sort of TLDR too long didn't read granola rating. Okay for everybody who just wants to skip ahead. Cheese. Right. The question is where do we go from here? Yes, okay. Okay, buckle up. So, reduce, reuse recycle. In that order. I had my friend Julia asked me, am I, we were talking about this as I was doing my research and crying. But she asked him if I'm going to keep recycling my plastic and I couldn't answer her because I was like, I don't know if it's worth it. Luckily, John Oliver has a helpful answer. Oh, good. And he says, Even recycling plastic while it may be 90%, more pointless than you assumed can still have modest environmental benefits. Fair. Okay. And the week that article I use clarifies to say if you sort the right kinds of plastics into your recycling bin, okay. Yep, I believe that, yeah. Quit with a wish cycling. Yes, exactly. So my friend Julia had a really good idea that she said it should be on our government's to stop offering plastics, recycling, and call it call it out on it's bullshit. But like, so many people are bought into it, or at least plastics recycling, in that single stream, throw everything in a bin kind of situation. But so many people are bought into it. And I they really don't. I don't think people could handle it. If they couldn't recycle or at least feel cycle you feel weird. Yeah, you do. Ya. So the proposed solutions, there are 123. Okay, so really three proposed solutions. And one is my favorite. But we'll start with the circular economy. And I'm not saying this is bad. To be honest, I didn't have enough time because this was a really big episode. I didn't have enough time to research fully into the circular economy. So I, I just wanted to really give a definition. But this is like one proposed solution. So it's basically like making like, it sounds making a circle out of the, out of the use of resources. So right now we take resources from the natural world, use them and dispose of them. In a circular economy. We reuse the resources rather than consuming them. So we create reusable, plastic and redesign plastic with recycling. I mean, it says recycling in mind, I don't think that's helpful. But well, I mean, if the idea of being able to reuse it, that makes sense. Yes. And we design it to like, we design our technology or our products to make repairs easy and reusing as much existing material as possible. Yeah. Upcycling, I mean, what even more technologically advanced than that we like reverse engineer our plastic, right to be recyclable, basically. Like, with minimal processing, you know, right. Yeah, that or just make it like, not everything has to be thrown away. Yeah, another, okay. So the circular economy is sort of its own thing. And everything can kind of relate to each other. But one other idea on reducing the amount of plastic we use is to make it a personal decision, and reduce our personal usage right back on the consumer. Yes. And so I found this blog and book called my plastic free life, and this person started the blog just as a personal thing. And then it's really kind of exploded, and they give us 100 steps that we can take. So they say like choose a few to get started and take time to build like, carry your own takeout container, carry a water bottle, bring your own produce bags to the grocery store. These are all really, actually very good ideas. No, I know they are an easy, you just have to remember, right? So then buy bread that come doesn't come in plastic bags, get milk and returnable glass bottles, DIY your cleaners. We can help you with that. We know a whole season about that. So the problem with that, and it's not that I disagree with any of that. And I had the same feeling when I was reading this book, How to Give Up plastic. And it was saying basically, like throw out all your I mean, this is a paraphrase. And I'm not even trying to insult the author or accuse him of anything. It's really just a commentary on the the general consensus is like throw out all your plastic stuff and buy new stuff to replace it. And there are multiple problems with that. But one of the big problems and I this New Yorker article that I just read from a couple of days ago, highlighted it with a Danish Environmental Protection Agency study. From 2018, this study looked at different kinds of shopping bags. So they compared plastic bags to paper bags to cloth bags. And they analyze the lifecycle impacts in terms of like, environment, climate change, ozone depletion, human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity, resource depletion, they looked at all sorts of stuff. And it turns out in order for other kinds of bags to be, as out sorry to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used 43 times. There's no way it could survive. That's when we're thinking re Yeah, okay. Cotton tote would have to be used 7100 times 7100 Time to offset all of the environmental indicators. That's a plastic tote, a cotton tote. Oh, a cotton tote. Wow. Like you think of cotton is good. I know. I know. So many cotton. Everybody gives them out like this. Give me a frickin tote bag. I have like me a stash in my trunk that like I will take grocery shopping with other people. Because I'm like, You're gonna forget your bags. And guess what? I've got them smart. And that contributes to your 7100 dimes. Yeah, I know. Because it's all my friends use them to know. But the good news is that's to offset all of the environmental indicators together. Okay, but you only have to use it 52 times to offset the climate change portion of it. So if we're really focusing on climate change, which is sort of personally what I want to focus on. Yeah. 52 times is attainable. That's once a week. Right? That is exactly what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. So but but I found that so interesting, because it's like, I knew that I had heard that in the past. Like I talked about producing paper takes a shitload of water. It takes it uses chemicals, it does. Forests, for like, yeah. So I found that really interesting. And throwing out all your plastic stuff and replacing it with non plastic stuff. I'm not necessarily sure that's the right yeah, direction you want to go probably better to just use your plastic stuff. Again, be very careful about what plastic stuff you get and reuse it. Right. Right. That's the thing. And it's so hard to do. Like, I think I told you, I almost had a panic attack grocery shopping. Yeah, like, can't get Yes. Is it possible? Yeah. And, and that's another thing. So this New Yorker article says is to make a significant dent in plastic waste, we it will probably require not just substitution, but in elimination. And that means elimination of stuff. Not just replacing that stuff, but eliminating not needing it. Yeah, yeah. So like, you walking around your grocery store, you can only use your arms. I don't know. I don't know what that would look like. But well, yeah, I mean, okay, well, or you only buy? You grow your own food, you know, right. And you don't need your bins. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's rough. That's that's, that is not sustainable for everyone. But that is an option. Yes. So then this, this New Yorker article says if the much of a contemporary of contemporary life is wrapped up in plastic, and the result of this is that we are poisoning our kids, ourselves and our ecosystems, then contemporary life may need to be rethought. But I have a question for you. I wanted to get your take on this. So people have said, like, oh, let's go back to how our grandparents did it. And that actually would solve our plastic problem. And I do agree with that, to a large extent tin cans and glass bottles. Exactly. However, do you think we can manage going back to the good parts of our grandparents life? Because let's be honest, they weren't all good. If women also work outside the home, there is there is my issue. convenience we have. It's a thing like we talked about all the time. I saw an argument on Facebook once because I'm old and I use Facebook. Thank you. We do about how bad Amazon is, economically, package wise, you know, but someone said, Look, I'm a working mom, and my husband works. And when I run out of something, and I can just click a button on Amazon and it's there the next day and I don't have to do the brain work of shopping for it or you know, like that's worth something. So you're right. I think we don't live in an economic situation where you can have a person in your home who is committed to doing all of this literal labor. Oh, absolutely. You know, thoughtfulness, the mindfulness. I mean, we all kind of hoped the pandemic would be this giant shift in our room. ality about what we value. And there's just been this drive, I think the whole Well, you got to come back into the office is this drive by wealthy individuals? Well, it will be corporations to try and get things back the status quo because if we don't consume and we don't drive, and we don't work 90 hours a week and never see our children, you know, we can't create this consumer culture that drives our economy and really does drive at the bottom of it, I hate to say it, but our standard of living, we, we live in a, in a society where 100 years ago, you needed a cook to cook all your meals or you know, and that would be a stay at home mom in the 50s You know, because you needed someone to manage the household like that. And what we have now is fast food or plastic wrapped things at the grocery store, you can just pop in the microwave, you know, and, and that is to support our lifestyle, it's it's one less thing we have to think of we all have a chef for ourselves, in some sense in McDonald's, you know, or like even home chef or those like, yeah, reordered. So options. And it is kind of I hate to get on a social justice train on this, but it does punish the poor to say that it is their job, you know, you need as a as a an individual contributor to society, we need to return to these inconvenient life modes. And there's no way that a person who works three jobs at minimum wage could ever have the time to do that. And that's that my I agree that it punishes women. It punishes lower income women, single moms. I mean that, again, we're asking the people with the least resources to do the most work again. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. It's like a lot I see on Instagram a lot like women who have chosen to start homesteading and working at home working on their home and just sort of like baking bread from scratch and all these things. And it's like, all sounds so idyllic, but it's just like, it's a sacrifice. I mean, yeah. And I think about it when I'm going into a grocery store. I'm like, Okay, if I didn't want to have plastic, let's say, bread. Okay, bread will say bread, like so I'm going to throw it out there. My twin sister, who you know, is my green living goddess. She has three kids, she works a full time job as a rocket scientist, so does her husband, and they bake their own bread. And he brews his own beer. And they grow garden and you know, they buy in bulk. So they don't have as much plastic and you know, all these things they make. It's very intentional. Yeah. And they don't have any more time than I do. Yeah. But then you think about like, okay, tortilla chips, for example. Yeah, I could theoretically get cornmeal in a paper sack, roll out my own tortillas cut, slice them up and coat them or just not eat tortilla chips. But like, I like tortilla chips. And salsa, man. It's one of my gyms for sure. And then fry them up and make them but that with every single product like cereal, I can never have cereal, pasta. Pasta. I have to make it by hand macaroni and cheese every time. No. Yeah. It's like, you can do that with one thing like make bread make beer or whatever. And if that's fun for you, that's awesome. But I'm assuming she's not making her own tortilla chips as well as her own. Yeah, like every Yeah, it's it's so sacrifices you make and it's Yeah, for sure. We do live in a world you know. That's another thing. How often did your grandmother eat tortilla chips? Right? Absolutely never are like, you know, I have macaroni and cheese out of a box. You know? That's true. It is one of life's great pleasures. Yeah. But it just kind of ridiculous that I expect to have all of my luxuries at all times because I don't want to go without tortilla chips. Yeah, but there is something to be said for on some level, you have to weigh what luxuries matter to you. On some level, we have to be willing to sacrifice luxuries and conveniences now, before they are forced away from us because of unsustainability of these luxuries of these luxurious lifestyles. Yeah, maybe but it's also like what I have to sew my own clothes. Also I have to you know, it's just there's so much into it that is convenient in our lives. Yeah, but I yeah, I just really wanted your take on that because I was like, oh my god, it's just such a different world. Yeah, it's a complete mind shift. And it's, yeah, I'm not I'm not ready to give up Amazon. You know, okay, I'm not. Yeah, well, and that's the other thing is like none of this. None of this can sustainably in our lives be an all of a sudden decision. I think everything has to be gradual, but at the same time, and this goes back to my third and small glimmer of Hope my third solution proposed solution is, it's not all on us, and it shouldn't have to be no. So I learned from John Oliver that there is such a thing as it's called extended producer responsibility, or also known as the polluter pays principle. Oh, yes. Okay, so the idea is that it makes companies pay for the pollution that they create, without coming like a carbon tax, right, like. So the idea is to make companies pay for pollution. And it forces companies to either create the infrastructure and the markets to recycle the waste that they create, or banned them ban these companies from creating the products to begin with. Okay. I mean, yeah, I think economic drivers, you know, there would always be loopholes would be my problem. I'm just such a cynic about our culture. No, I tell the techno feudalism that we live in that those with money are always going to find a way to skirt these things and sell us a bag of goods that is not good for us. Well, hey, it's something it's at least like tonight's conversation going, yeah, maybe these companies should have more responsibility in the game. So yeah, they're putting it out there. They should, you know, they should have to lie in the bed they think. Exactly. Take care of the children they're making. That sounds bad. So many strike that strike that. Something wrong with illegitimate children. Okay. So can I take responsibility for an acclaimed job so much unpaid child support? Well, does unpaid child support? Yes, deadbeat dad companies? Yes, deadbeat parents. So it turns out that the US is one of the only developed countries without an extended producer responsibility. And it's that voluntary, our our idea that people are going to do the right thing because they're supposed to, and not because they've been conditioned otherwise. Yeah, I don't even think it's that I think it's more that there's too much pressure from the plastics industry, from the oil industry, that our politicians feel it's not even that we have faith that they're going to do the right thing. It's more like, if we made this mandatory, I'm not going to get reelected. Right. So yeah. All right. So here's the thing. So some of the Democrats are actually making some moves, including Bernie Sanders, who, I don't know how you feel about him. But he's still, he's still out there. So there's the break free from Plastic Pollution Act, which was introduced in the Senate in 2021. From Bernie Sanders and a bunch of other Democrats. He's the only one that I recognize, and it's only been introduced. So it's like, still in the works. 2021 It's been two years people. It hasn't gone anywhere. It doesn't mean it won't. But it's something to keep an eye on. Because it's, it seems like a solution, it seems like an option to at least improve the situation. But as states do, when the federal government fails to act, four states enacted their own laws, their own EPR laws, mean Oregon, Colorado and California. Okay, so they put they were like, Screw it, we're just putting our own laws in place. Illinois, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, Hawaii, and Washington are all at least discussing it. But it may be stalled. But they're still chatting about it. At least. I looked at Maryland where I live and we we have a Democrat governor, but he chose to study it rather than implement it. And so street cred I'll have his cake and needed to pretty much he's like, we're gonna take a look at this as well. How about you just read like four pages of a brief and decide? So it's an option? It's like a maybe here? I don't know, but I'm gonna keep an eye on it for sure. So like, look up EPR laws coming through the pipeline in your state? Because I'm very disappointed when I looked them up in Texas. Sure. I don't know about Texas, but I have a feeling but that doesn't mean it's impossible. There's always hope. Okay, that looks like there was a bill text an act relating to a program for the recycling of computer equipment. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm Delve Oh, it's a computer cycling build a Dell back actually in 2007, but I don't know. I know. Yeah, I think I read that EPR some of it does focus on plastics. Not pot. Sorry. No. Tech. Tech. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, because that is a huge polluter that we don't talk huge problem. Yeah. Apple. So that's it. Okay. That was only an hour. Yeah, that's not a bad. No. I mean, and there's some hope there. I mean, I agree. I think. I think the tide is turning and I think people The secret's out. No, nobody that I have spoken to and I do live in a little educated bubble. You know, nobody that I've spoken to is is shocked that plastic recycling is green hooey. I was shocked. To the extent that I think that may be the case, but I think the tide is turning for sure. Yeah, well, no. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't think anybody's using plastic and feeling good about it. No, no, I mean, me the new smoking give a shit. But yeah, some people don't. But it's to do care. I don't think they're like, Oh, this is fine. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you this. This is actually a really great segue into next week's topic. Oh, what is it I forget. Eco Friendly junk collection. We're looking into Bridwell. I'm so excited. Yeah. And I'm excited about this one too. I think it'll be a nice palate cleanser. Thank God. We really needed it. We do. We do after our waterlogged plastics. Yes. the grossest of all gross granola ratings. That is, by far the worst we've had. So far. So good, but nothing is worse than that. Man. We're gonna have to come up with a real doozy of a word. Yeah. So please, God, don't let any worse? I hope not. Yeah, it's less than we've hit the bottom where there's only up uphill from here. Thank God. So yeah, hopefully it was helpful. I think it's definitely helped open my eyes. And I think the biggest takeaway would be like, don't try not to have a panic attack in the grocery store. Because I think it's all very gradual. It's all very slow. Yeah, look up those EPR laws in your state and try to push them through. I truly don't know how that happens. But write a letter to your friends write a letter. Yeah. To your your congressman, Congress, people your representatives. Yep. Yeah, cuz it's like, this is all honestly, this is all that I want in my life. Like if that happened, I would die a happy woman. Truly, because it's always in Java and me. You've heard it here. The way to make Tiffany Verbeck happy is to get this passed. So please, God, because it's like I've always been so frustrated at the fact that companies just get away with Yeah, her. Yeah. Literal planet murder. Yeah. So Deathstar. Okay, well, all right. If you like our content or hate our content, please follow us. Click that follow button wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe. Or leave us a rating. It's a great way to let other people know who we are. And my mom can only do so much of her friends. Thanks, Mom. Only so many reviews that one phone can handle. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, reviews are so helpful for a podcast. So 100 reviews, if you if you like us, maybe if you hate us, just go away. Don't leave a one star review. But no, no. I mean, if we got enough one star reviews, maybe it would be like shooting the moon, you know, and people are saying what is this horrible pod? But don't think the algorithm works that way. So the algorithm has no sense of humor. It only shows high star ratings. So if you hate us, give us a five star rating so you can get all your friends to hate us to reverse psychology to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. All right. Well, I will talk to you next week. I'm excited to hear about red whale. Yeah. Can't wait to talk about it. Thanks. Okay.