Minimalism Isn't Always Sustainable (Don't Come at Us)

Is minimalism eco friendlier, I read this really good blog by the plain simple life. And she says minimalists don't necessarily focus on being environmentally positive. They may focus more on living a simple life, which I think is what we've seen, with less, less clutter and less stress. Hi, Tiffany, go in the first day of my period, I was like, should I share this? Out? Let's share it's fine. So I'm very sleep. But yeah, other than that, things are good. So that you know, sometimes, I don't know I don't I should probably shouldn't go off on my feminist rant about how we should get time off periods. Because I know that's a contentious matter. But, man, man alive is right. Man is right. A woman really likes women. Truthfully. Yeah. Yeah. So even though I'm tired, I'm still super excited about this episode. Because as I mentioned at the end of last week's episode, this, we're talking about minimalism, and I wanted to explore the sustainability of minimalism because I think a lot of people talk about it. And if you don't know what it is, that's okay, explain it. But they talk about it as if it is automatically more sustainable. And to the things. I don't know, I just found i I'm shooting more, so I'm going to shoot on it a little bit, but I'm shooting more on one particular subset of minimalism. And I came into it, it just surprised me because I came into it very open minded and actually appreciating minimalism for a lot of things. And I still do and yet, and yet, so we can't talk about minimalism without talking about the minimalists. Okay, do you know Okay, possibly. Okay, I hope I almost hope that you don't, but you probably baby do so. They are two guys named Joshua fields. Milburn is one and Ryan Nicodemus is the other. They're the Bife. Far, far and away the most famous and most influential minimalists out there at the moment. They have an Emmy non Emmy nominated a documentary on Netflix. It's called minimalism. Have you seen it? Okay. No, I haven't. Okay, because I didn't had I didn't know it was took I thought minimalism was like, a worldwide phenomenon, but it can be attributed to two guys. No, no, no. So I'm not saying that they invented it. Okay. But they are the most influential people who are shouting the gospel of minimalism at the moment. Evangelical minimalists. One you have no idea how accurate okay. Yes. So they because my next bullet point is that they remind me of megachurch pastors. Okay. All right. Yes. And I don't mind I don't care if you go to church or whatever, but don't preach at me. That's how I feel. Um, so? Yeah, yeah. So like time how to be exactly. So I'm gonna start with a tidbit and then dive into it after I cite my sources. So I went into this with a completely open mind. I had watched their documentary a couple of years ago, and I really liked it, because it they were basically just talking about how minimalism helped them. And I don't know, I thought it was a really inspiring documentary. And then I don't know if something's changed, or if I've changed or whatever. But I listened to the most recent episode as of August 2023, when we're recording this, of the minimalist podcast, which is wildly popular. And the most recent episode I thought was really appropriate for the topic. So they were answering a listener question about the by nothing movement. Okay. Yes, yes. And caveat little side note, the by nothing movement, and I'll get into it a little bit more. We've talked about it some but it started with an environmental focus. The minimalists did not. So that's just a sort of laying the groundwork. But there it was Joshua, his response just went off the rails to the point that I was like, Yes, I was just like, what is happening and I'm going to give you a little bit little tidbit of it right now. Okay. So it was Joshua and his co host, TK Coleman, they started with a wild analysis of the book title The by nothing that the two founders wrote. The it's the book title is called the Buy Nothing, get everything plan, discover the joy of spending less, sharing more and living generously. Oh, I can already see where they're gonna have a problem with this. All sounds lovely to me. But yeah, Joshua says, quote, I want to give you a warning, that binary thinking often leads to detrimental outcomes, in harmonious outcomes. By nothing, get everything when taken literally means one thing. But when we take it as a figurative stance, or a new disposition on life can mean something completely different. Okay? His co host TK says when taken really literally, it's scary. It's like, Man, I didn't even pay for this stuff. And now I got it. Now I still gotta figure out what I'm going to do with it. Then Joshua says, Buy Nothing. You can even take that literally, can I go out and buy something called nothing? Oh, my gosh, oh, wait a minute. And how much does nothing cost? And if you buy nothing, and you get everything, maybe I didn't want everything. But and then he says, finishes his out finishes it out. But that is not the spirit of this book. Okay, so Okay. And neither of them had read the book, by the way. So they were answering a listener question about this movement about this book. And they had not even read the book. They were just really spitballin And I was so lost and immediately put off by Yeah, that sounds like some religious hooey like it. Well, we don't like this threat to our way of life, which is, I don't know. Well, I we haven't really discussed what minimalism is. But I'm guessing they don't like the idea of more stuff. Period. Right. I think that's it. Yeah. I buy nothing group would be all about more stuff. But kind of, but not really. I know. That's a thing about that mean, I have so frustrating. Yeah, the premise of Buy Nothing is don't throw stuff away. Give it to somebody who can use it. Yes. And don't buy new stuff. Like I don't understand, which seems like it would be minimalism is best friend. Exactly. That's why I'm so confused what religions can have best friends because right or not, right. 100% That's exactly what's happening. Oh my gosh, yeah. So now I want to answer is the lifestyle advertised by the minimalists? Sustainable? Okay, you're going to find out and we're gonna compare them to the Buy Nothing project and also Swedish death cleaning. I looked into a little bit yeah, there's so much in this episode. Yeah, I didn't. I had to like cut down some because I didn't want it to be 1000 years long. But yeah, I wanted to cover all that stuff. Because it's like kind of all encompassing minimalism because there are 1 million ways you can go about it. So well, unless you're these hosts who exactly they have gospel on Yeah, you are going to just crapped your pants again. At the savings? No. At the absurdity, okay. So my sources, again, the Buy Nothing get everything plan book, The minimalist podcast, obviously. And I also, unfortunately, gave them my email and downloaded one of their books. Like an eBook, a fake email, oh, man. Well, I needed to I wanted to read I had to know what I was. I didn't want to accuse them of something without really knowing like them. You know, I wanted to be the better woman so. So there was a really good article on on medium by this guy named Mike Grendel. It's called the commodification of minimalism. And GIA Tolentino writes for The New Yorker and she wrote a couple years ago the pitfalls and potential of new minimalism. Then I looked into a couple of studies. So internet, the International Journal of cognitive therapy study the environment and behavior there was an environment and behavior Study on Office clutter. JSTOR daily talks about hoarding disorder. So I talk about hoarding a little bit also okay. Yeah, because it's obviously the, you know, suppose it opposite. The blit plain, simple life has a blog on eco minimalism. And there's an in Oh, there is also an NIH study on hoarding disorder. Oh, and then I found in Eco minimalist on YouTube named shell Bisley. It's spelled very confusingly, so I will link it, but she's got some really cool. Really, like, really good videos. So okay. And then finally, one source on Swedish death cleaning from the Washington Post. Cool. So what is minimalism? And why is it interesting? Well, first, it is popular AF. So the minimalist podcast has over 100 million downloads. Oh my gosh, their first Netflix documentary, minimalism has over 80 million views. And, you know, Marie Kondo is kind of like in that vein, too, and she's incredibly influential. She's obviously doesn't isn't associated with them, and I have completely different feelings about her. But, um, and to be clear, we're talking about new minimalism. This is something that has been that sort of how it's been defined, because the idea of living with less has been around for 1000s of years. You know, this is not new. We're talking about with poverty, the Hmong. Exactly, you know, exactly, yeah. So, if you want like a definition, this might help you understand why this was a little bit this actually was like quite hard to research. Because Mike Grendel, the medium article gives a really good definition. Sometimes minimalism is framed as a reaction to consumerism. Other times it's more about objects, where we keep them how they affect our moods, whether they spark joy. On other occasions, minimalism is presented as a kind of productivity hack, as if it were a secret barrier between the ultra rich and the disorganized masses. Right. Okay. Which I love that quote. Yeah. So that's why it's it's very difficult office. Yeah, yes. And so some people say like, if one comes in one goes out. So if you buy something, you have to get rid of something. That's That's pretty. That's a big closet thing people do. Yeah. Yeah. For like, if I buy a new dress, I have to get rid of an old one. Yeah, I don't do that. But don't use it. I'm not a minimalist. I think people people do that yet. So my YouTube algorithm is chock full of this stuff. And I'm realizing how toxic it might be actually, because it's just white walled sparsely furnished homes. decluttering, or purging videos purging. That's the other thing that firms all over the place. The minimalist use order term. Yes. And it's everywhere. Yeah. And I devour this content. And I'm realizing maybe I shouldn't, or at least less well, does it make you feel bad? Because that's the thing. Yeah, totally. It makes me feel like my house is not even remotely good enough. Right. Minimalism is the new thin. You can never be Senator, I think so. You can never have too few things. Like there's one woman I don't remember her name on YouTube. But I follow. I don't actually follow her. She just popped up because that's my algorithm. And she has rooms with like, one piece of furniture and she's a mom. I'm like, What am I doing wrong? Like, holy shit ball. I'm like, I'm doing something very wrong. It's like people who? I don't know. That's like, Is your house staged for sale? Or do you live? Right? Right? I don't. Yeah. I mean, in her mind, she lives there. She just has four things, you know? I don't know. It's it's extreme. It's really extreme. I mean, it is like the Fight Club saying the things you own end up owning you. Right? That's yeah. And yeah, I think that's the idea. And everybody who's really extreme about it says that it's made them happier. And I'm not saying they're wrong. So I do know that like, when I have more space, like, your mind is better. Like when there's less and less like the closet behind me. That should be my podcasting studio is just chock full of like, stuff. I don't know how to organize and it does, it gives me you know, anxiety. Yeah, yeah. And we're gonna get into a little bit of that when we talk about hoarding disorder. But, but it Okay, so that's like new minimalism. were you gonna say something? Well, I'm just sorry. I'm just musing. I know just to me. No, I love it. That's why I was so excited to Well, I was talking with someone about how I kind of romanticize a vow of poverty. Like you have said that actually on the podcast before Yeah, I find it very, like yeah, don't need more stuff don't need more money, like my life is. Life is about the relationships we have. Not the accumulation of things. And but that's not what minimalism is. New minimalism is a show of display of wealth. into it in this sense. I'm trying to think it can be Yeah, I don't think it's always a symbol. Total. Oh, 1,000%. Yeah. I don't necessarily Well, yeah, I guess everything's about wealth in the end, right. Well, in our society, yeah. Yes. Just why so idolize poverty, not Yeah, well, already. The, the choice to live with less I admire, but not if it's to look better to the Joneses. Yeah. And I was gonna say like, it takes privilege to be able to not be forced into a situation where you have to live with less, right. Like, that's a very different scenario. Yeah. It's like those lists of things that are are cool if you're rich, but not if you're poor. And it's like, doing drugs and public drinking in public. Yes. Having nothing in your house. Cool. Yeah. Rich. Not if you're poor. Oh, my god. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a vow of poverty. People who are impoverished certainly wouldn't. Yeah, wish that on anyone else? Exactly. Um, yeah. And I, for me, it's the vow of poverty is, if you well, and that gets into like, extreme altruism, which is something I'm very interested in, but like, you have enough and so what you deal with your extra is you give it to people who need it. Right. Like, I believe in that. Yes. I love it. Yeah. But yeah, that's, that's different than just being a minimalist. Okay. Yeah. And so I found I'll get into it a little bit, because I found a lot of differences in the mentality of the other options, like, I'm trying to think where I get into that a little bit later where I compare them, but I do have a little bit about the Buy Nothing project and how it's different than what the minimalists are selling. So, which is so funny. minimalists are selling jewelry, you just said it? Why No, right? It's buying nothing, right? Oh, what is oh, how much does it cost they are without I will tell you even more how they're selling it. And it's really frustrating. So I've already I know, I know. I'm glad I knew you would be. So the Buy Nothing project focuses on community and they focus on environmental impact. So it was started by two friends named Liezel Clark and Rebecca Rockefeller, after they discovered that their local beach was littered with plastic and other trash. So they just created one by nothing group in their area. And now today, they have 7000 of them, or more, more than 7000. And they're basically groups that you can sign in. You can join on Facebook, they're only on Facebook, right? As as far as I know. Yeah, I think they are. And people basically swap items that they no longer find useful. And there's never a charge. There's never any expectations. And it's just because you want to give it away and you want somebody else to find use out of it. And the biggest takeaway from their book is this idea of refusing. So they say that's what's missing and the Reduce Reuse recycle is refusing to buy stuff or refusing. I've heard other people say like refusing to take plastic silverware from a fast food place or refusing to consume in whatever way that means. Okay? And they even say their themselves. It's not an exercise in perfection, self denial, or Abnegation. There's no way to fail at the Buy Nothing movement. It's meant to be explored in your life. And they found one thing they found to be true is that being knit into a local web of sharing in which we play a vital role is more fulfilling than a the lonely hoarding of our stuff. For our private use. Oh, and I would argue the lonely lack of stuff. Yes. private use. Yes, yes. Okay. Um, well, just the general loss of community that we have this cat on a soapbox but in a in a world where everything is catered to you individually, your Facebook algorithm, your, you know, TV shows, everything is catered directly to you and we've lost the sense of community and so it's like all the stuff you buy is just so uncommunicative minded, even if it's minimalist, yes. This this the loneliness of our current cultural status and that I yeah, I love the Buy Nothing group for that. Yes. And the funny thing is, you never know what people will want until you offer it. So I, they won't let me on my local Buy Nothing group because I don't know my address doesn't fit with any of them. But I'm on Freecycle. And our freecycle is really active. And I saw somebody snatch up 30 paper bags, like, like that, like, quickly. This is exactly one woman's trash is another woman's treasure. It is so true. Yeah. So we're gonna get into a little bit more about that their response because it just gets more frustrating. But okay, let me know when there's something dramatic because I might have the right sound effect. Perfect. But first, I wanted to look at minimalism a little bit in the same way as we look at other systems. Okay, we've analyzed so what is it? Is it easy to accomplish as my next question, okay. I have to focus on the minimalists because I have to focus on something right. And they're just so big. It's such an amorphous it is yet. So they have a 30 day minimalism game. That's what they call it. Okay, where you get rid of, it's basically like, a challenge. And you get rid of one thing on the first day of the month, two things on the second day, three things on the third, so forth and so on. They say whether you donate sell, or trash your excess, every material possession must be out of your house and out of your life by midnight each day. Okay. So when we're talking solely about ease, that takes a ton of time and energy, you need a a month off to do that. Yes. That's not just coming home from work and you have an hour and you know, after the kids asleep, exactly, yeah, high pressure. And it prioritizes getting stuff out rather than getting stuff out responsibly. Okay, fair, which we are not into for the record, right. So that's the big difference between the minimalists and the Buy Nothing project. Because the Buy Nothing project is very much about make sure your stuff doesn't end up in the landfill or on the beaches or whatever. Yeah. So they are also from what I could gather there. They're very contradictory and hard to follow. So let's go. Let's take a little trip back to that listener question in the podcast episode. Okay. So the original listener said in order. She said, You know, I like I heard about the BI nothing movement, I like it. But I have one problem in order to fix things. And in order for you to get someone else's stuff. Now you're keeping stuff. It goes back to how you guys say, the just in case items. Yep. I'm gonna get into the just in case items, exactly what they are, because it's all my Halloween costumes. Yes, I mean, you can kind of guess, right? It's like, you're keeping them just in case but so Okay, Joshua's response. Again, he hasn't read the Buy Nothing book, but he's very familiar with by nothing groups. And then he I have so much sass right now, but I don't think here. I'm only using what he said himself. Then he proceeded to advertise his own minimalist Facebook groups. I think they're Facebook, as if they were the same. And they are not know these minimalist groups are like meetups. They have no similarity whatsoever. But he advertised them anyway. As if, anyway. So then he talks about the like, spiel about the inharmonious outcomes. Then he says that their version of minimalism is not prescriptive. And he compares it to buy nothing. Where he found he I think he did a Google search and he found a list of 50 items. You never need to buy like Ziploc bags and paper towels. He says, quote, I'm already out then because I buy those things. And I don't think you're evil if you use those things. Okay. No one said you were you the Buy Nothing group is all about like whatever you can do. Do You know, not like, yes. Well, he's totally taken. He's just villainizing it. Yes. For his. But then at the next breath, he'll say he is like, okay. Yeah, he says he's, he likes it. And he likes him. But then he says all this other stuff. So he doesn't like it's just crazy. And then I think it was either him, or TK, his host or co host who says you're not allowed to buy? Like nobody says you're not allowed, just so you don't need them. Yeah. And then. So keep in mind, they just said that their minimalism is not prescriptive. And then and then almost the next breath, they're pushing their minimalist rulebook. Yeah, that's the one I downloaded. Yeah. It's not prescriptive at all. So Romans 16 rules. Oh, my God. And, and in the rulebook, it says, rules can be arbitrary, restrictive, boring, but they are often helpful when we hope to make a change. So I'm like, What are you doing if you're making rules and prescriptions are the same goddamn thing? Right? So, sidenote, his co host, TK Coleman is much more reasonable toward the end. So I'm not throwing him under the same bus. But okay. I sat for days with this, because I was like, How do I process all of this, and I want to give him grace. I'm angry, but I want to give him some grace. Because I think he got defensive. And I see this mostly in privileged men. Sorry, not sorry. But it's true. And it reminded me of when I used to mention in, in college, I went through a vegetarian phase. And I used to mention to some guys, this happened multiple times that just say that I was a vegetarian, right? And they would actually yell at me about why they eat meat. And I was like, I didn't say shit about what you're doing. All I said was rise what I do, yes. And they would yell, actively yell at me. And it's like, no one's attacking, you just shut up. Like, right? So either he thinks of by nothing as a competitor, which like you said, probably. Or he feels guilty about his lack of thinking of the sustainability of his prescriptions. It's just this like, threat that if anybody else is doing something, we can't collaborate, we have to be on top. You know, I hate it so much. It's either my way or the highway. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like I get I can only imagine the women who made the Buy Nothing project listening to the episode and be like, What the fuck like? Yeah, I would be upset if I was them. No. So because of that, I was like, I should look at like Swedish death cleaning real quick, and just get like a quick comparison on how because everybody's talking about Swedish death cleaning. And it's such a catchy name that I'm like, What is this? This is so interesting. And they are very different. This was also started by a woman. And I'm not trying to gender eyes, this stuff. But it does seem very, very clear. I'm also started by a woman. And she basically just wanted to think about her heirs, like her kids in regard to her stuff. Yeah. And so the idea is, you go through every single thing you own, and you think, and you don't have to be old to do this. But you think, oh, yeah, I mean, I've watched people on YouTube who are young, and they're like, oh, that's actually really cool. Yeah, but you ask yourself, would somebody really want this after you die? Or are you burdening them with getting rid of it? And yeah, and so and then you also continue on by asking yourself what life would be like living with this thing before you buy it. So it kind of helped. It's supposed to help you stop buying a bunch of shit too. And the woman who started it, her name is Margarita Magnuson, and she says there's no rush. The more time you spend going through your belongings, the easier it will get. The article says it's a reflection, not a weekend affair. And her readers often just think on one object today, and then soon, everything's either gone, given away or kept. So the binary thing project Swedish death, cleaning and even Marie Kondo are much more chill in their approach. And they're also in my opinion, more outwardly focused so on their community on their loved ones on the environment, rather than inward and on your personal space, which I much prefer the outward one. Yeah. Communal view. Yes. Yeah. So that I just had to do Talk about that, because it's like, it doesn't even. That's not even really like a sustainability thing. It's just like, This is what's out there. And I had to just get off my chest because I was gonna lose my frickin mind. But it is I think it is related to say sustainability, because, yeah, I think they, in their minds probably think that they're being more sustainable, but we're gonna get into like, why they might not be. So real quick. Does minimalism work? That's something I can't say that definitively because it's personal. And it can help people become more intentional about the items they keep buy and consume. That is true. Yeah. But that's not quantifiable. Exactly. And it just really, who the hell knows? Right? Yeah. Because it can also be a trend that people try on for a month, and then forget about, right, which I think is probably more common than people who are going down, getting down to like, one piece of furniture per room, right? Doesn't sound like I mean, from a different definition of sustainable. That doesn't sound sustainable to me. So yeah, exactly. I mean, some people said, it is I don't know. Okay. So it also could be a chicken and egg scenario. So I looked into a little bit about hoarding disorder and like stress and clutter. Yeah. So studies show that clutter can induce stress, but perhaps stress also induces clutter. I live that. Yes, yes, me too. So the International Journal of cognitive therapy says that there is a potential link between traumatic life events and hoarding disorder, obviously, that's on the more extreme end. But I think, you know, all of us can relate. And the other one, the next one is really interesting, because I'm like, This is me, this is my life, environmental environment and behavior, had a study about Office clutter, and they said, the most emotionally and physically drained employees are the most likely to build up office clutter. I got it. I mean, yes. Just, I've been there. I want it to be just because you don't have the energy to get rid of shit. Exactly. Actually, you're not intentionally hoarding. It's just like, I don't have the bandwidth to decide if I need this or not, or to just throw away my mail or like, the worse off my mental state is, the harder it is for me to clean up after myself. Oh, app. So lately, and I think it's just like, that's a, you know, that's a sign of just a very stressed out society. So maybe it's an NIH study that I looked at says approximately two thirds of individuals with hoarding disorder meet criteria for CO morbid mood or anxiety disorder. I buy it. Yeah. So it's like, not necessarily. Yes, it is true, that clutter can cause stress. But how does like how much have we thought about the opposite? Right, right. It's that it's not that that makes perfect sense. To me. I feel like you just said something that I've always thought is, are the people that I have known were hoarders were people who were clinically depressed? Yes. You know, absolutely. And then not getting help. Yeah, and giving these folks 16 rules to live by and saying, throw out all your shit and then buy less is not going to be effective. Now, that is not mental health. That is not therapy. That is Yeah. So it's like maybe the stuff which is very much the mental illness. They're, they're figuring out the stuff, but like, maybe the stuff isn't the problem. Maybe it's the society. And I've heard, like, I think I've heard that hoarding disorders getting worse, where, especially in older, older generation, yes. There's like, people are hurting themselves and having to call, I don't know, it's kind of scary being over. So I mean, I've had people I know with close family members, and I mean, we had one great aunt, not my great aunt, but a friend of mine, who looked like she was coming out of her house in a normal way. And when she passed away, it was like, stacks of newspapers and things that you had to get around in the house and her toilet had stopped working. And she was pooping in plastic bags and keeping it in the shower. Oh, my God, because she was too embarrassed to let somebody in to fix her toilet. Oh my god, that's so sad. No one knew, you know, she's living in squalor. I had friends parents who Yeah, it's just yeah, I mean, I grew up around hoarding situations and it is like very, very, very, very, very stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And okay, leading right into it. Why do we hate hoarding so much? I found this because it really is like there's a show hoarders. It's like a There's so much public shame around it. Yes. So JSTOR daily, I guess they have sort of this article thing. But yeah, they say, this was really interesting because they said that several scholars have suggested that hoarding hits a little too close to home. And that's why we hate it so much. Yeah. So we all day, there's a quote, we all do daily battle against an excess of stuff, it flows into our homes brought by FedEx, and the US Postal Service snagged on Amazon, Facebook marketplace, freecycle. Or a yard sale, inherited or handed down, it piles up in closets, basements, and garages. And, like, this is so true. And it's so personal for me because I grew up around it. And I like have to find a way to balance my balance the uncontrolled intake of stuff versus and obsession with being clutter free. Like yeah, there's gotta be some balance there not a binary Yeah, because there is something very sick about it's kind of like binge eating versus anorexia. I know there are a lot of parallels. Yeah, it's the same coin. Right? It's two sides of the same coin. It's this discomfort with our lifestyle or our success of any sort. Yeah. Or this lack of control? Yes. And you can be, you know, sometimes you fix it by buying more stuff. And sometimes you fix it by getting rid of everything. Yes. And it's the same as the issue is the sitting with this, I have no control over climate change. I have no control over critical situation. I have no control over COVID-19 I have no control over mass shooters coming into public. You know, like, all these things are wildfires. All this news we get all the time about our lives. And it's like, two ways to fix it. I can either buy everything I possibly can or I can get rid of everything. You know, it's like the CM impulse. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I definitely struggle with it. So much percent of you retail do is huge for me. Yeah. Yeah. So is alright. So the next question is minimalism. Affordable. Okay, this is funny. It should be right, like you think, right. And actually, this is one area where I do think it shines. Because state the obvious, buying less stuff should save you a lot of money. Yeah. And so the stuff you do buy might be more expensive, because the idea is to buy better and buy less, right, less. But over time, and you know, that would discount a lot of people from being able to even take part in minimalism because they're like, I can't afford a $200 pair of jeans. Oh, Mike. So, you know, in theory, if you can afford it, your stuff is more durable, and it will last longer than cheapo items. But for some people that's just off to the off the table. Same with fast fashion, you know, and I realized that after, and I want to apologize to people like sometimes you just can't afford anything but the $2 shirt. Right? You know, and I totally get that. And it is like we have all these things about Yeah, you should buy more expensive stuff less often. But unless you have that $200 up front. Yes, you can't. You can't do bulk food shopping. You can't do. Yeah, we're not out here. Yeah, we're not like saying, Oh, just put it on a credit card or something. Right. Like, that's all? Yeah, no, I totally because I have the same thing. I have like junk furniture, and it's because I couldn't afford nice stuff. You know, and I'm gonna have to get rid of it sooner, but it's just like, I just didn't have the scratch. You know? Yes. So I don't I think I talked about that a little bit too privileged when I talked about fast fashion. Yes. Somebody? Yeah. You can't buy the more expensive stuff. Right. You know, yeah. I was talking about the excessive need to buy too much, though. That's right. For me. Yeah. I think trends are the big thing. Yeah. And plus, another thing about minimalism on YouTube is like a lot of people buy all the fancy organizers. And so like, yeah, that's my condo sells more shit, you know? Yeah. Well, Marie Kondo is actually pretty good about telling people to use boxes that they already have, but I think most people don't do it that way. But then you see YouTube and it's like, holy shit. Like, you're gonna go out and buy 300 400 500 more or more dollars worth of organizers. Yeah, it's all over the place. So in that sense, no, it's not more affordable. You don't need all those organizers. There's but but yeah. I remember when I was like just out of college, living with my first boyfriend and we were pretty poor. And I was like, I need to organize this stuff in the bathroom and I took construction paper, and I glued it on to like cardboard boxes and made organizers in our bedroom for free. Exactly. I love craft paper and some like little string and all tie. I make my own labels and stuff like that. Yeah. And it looks good. Yeah. Good enough. Good enough. Nobody's coming in to photograph my home country living is not in my home. Hopefully they never will be okay, I. Alright, so now let's get into the meat of it. Right? So is minimalism eco friendly or because there is no such thing as eco friendly. Anything you do is going to be disruptive and satisfying on this planet is just Yes, yeah. Yeah. And that's your list of stressors that makes you buy more stuff. Yeah. No. But eco friendly. Are there things that you can do to be much friendlier? So is it not necessarily. Okay, I read this really good blog by the plain, simple life. And she says minimalists don't necessarily focus on being environmentally positive. They may focus more on living a simple life, which I think is what we've seen, with less, less clutter and less stress. Yeah. And then the minimalists themselves, say, like I mentioned, they say you can donate, sell, recycle. Trash your excess. Like, they basically say, like, Whatever you do, just get it out. Right. And they also say being a minimalist doesn't mean you'll never buy anything new, it means you'll do so with intention. It also means you'll let go aggressively and deliberately. So this just reminds me of my goodwill story about my pasta maker that I told earlier in this season, where I just I think I had been watching these YouTube videos, and I felt rushed and pressured to make a perfectly clean house today, or it's not worth bothering. And so I took my pasta maker to Goodwill and now it's in two parts in a landfill like That much is obvious. That's just obvious to me that that's where it went. So I mean, ideally, you would buy less stuff, right? But if you're also anti Buy Nothing movement, and I'm not really sure how that works out. Right. So I do have some recommendations going forward. But first, I want to get into my granola rating. Okay, okay. So so i had to rate a specific thing, so I'm reading the minimalists. How would you describe it their movement? Yes, sir. If so, their movement? Yeah. I'm writing them on their sustainability. Our granola rating is one through five. One is soggy granola, which is gross. Five is break your tooth off super, super crunchy granola, which is delicious. Right? So the minimal the minimalists themselves, I am reading them to two out of five and I'm trying to not be Teddy. Is that petty? No, because I think they're selling an idea. But they're from from our standpoint, the sustainability isn't there. Right? It's yeah, that's not the focus, right? It's it's not it's not with an eye towards eco friendliness. Right. It's really just like, get rid of your shit. Yeah. And a lot of people say, Oh, if you can't sell it in a week, this isn't them. But other people. If you can't, I actually might be. I don't remember I did a lot of research, but it sounds like you read a lot. Yeah, yeah. If you can't sell it in a week, then just donate it or get rid of it. But it's like donating it to Goodwill is not necessarily the right move, which we have learned through trial and error. So better better than just throwing it away. Probably. But yeah, probably. Hopefully for my pasta maker, but we'll see. I hope someone figured that out. I hope someone is sitting somewhere in Baltimore right now using your pasta. No, I hope so. I've learned a lot from that. So, yeah. So going forward. There is a minimalism that focuses on the environment, and that is called Eco minimalism. Okay, so the plain simple life says eco minimal ism is a term used to describe someone who has adopted the simple sustainable lifestyle of consuming only what they need. The idea is that by limiting your material possessions to things you actually use, you reduce the strain on the environment. And she says minimalism and eco minimalism can go hand in hand, but many minimalists are involved. And many minimalists are also environmentalists, but not all of them have to be. So that's why I was so confused when I heard all this when I listened to that podcast episode, because I was like, but I thought people cared about the Earth. Right? So there are a lot of minimalist, who do but I don't. And I'm not saying these two dudes don't care about the Earth. I'm just saying it is not their focus. It's sort of like an off off shoot perk is how they talk about it. Okay, which is very common with other things too. But companies do it all the time. Yeah. So I mentioned Shel Bisley on YouTube. The Yep, she spells her name in a hard way to say but she talks about decluttering sustainably. She has one video about decluttering sustainably, it was really good. She had like, I think like 50 ideas. And I wrote down 15. But it's like, I don't even know if I can get through all those because it's like so many. But yeah, there's sell or list as many things as you can. People. Her idea was if people are buying stuff, or even if they're going out of their way to get it for free, they're probably gonna value it a lot more. And I agree with that. Give it to friends and family who actually want it. Used by nothing groups are freecycle. eBay has local listings, and you can list it for free or you can try to sell it. You can host to Oh, yeah, yep. You can host a swap party, or having have a moving sale. Or give your formalwear to nonprofits. There are specific places that you can give bras or towels like towels can go to local animal shelters if they need them. Backpacks can go to give a kid a backpack. Mascara can go to ones for wildlife. I don't know. Yes. That's a clean ducks and stuff with it. Yes, I didn't know that. And it goes on and on. Like the list is huge. And it's a really comprehensive list. But like, oh, my god, is that a lot of work? Yeah, that's like, Man, I feel like that'd be a full time job. Yeah. And not to mention none of that melds with the minimalists. Right. So now everything is one of the rules for the minimalist everything in its place. But what if it's placed is in a pile in the trunk of your car until you finally remember to take it to the little free library? Right? Yeah. Or like, it just has to sit there until you can manage to take it to wherever? Yeah, and I mean, I have definitely had, like bags of clothing in my trunk for months to take. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And, or even just like storing something until your friend can pick it up a month later, or whatever. Like nothing like that doesn't go with minimalism in the minimalists sense at all. No. So, yeah, and also like, My Lord, is that a lot of time and resources? So I love the ideas, but it is. I feel like we need I mean, Redwall is a really good solution, I think. Yeah. But that's more for trash. So it's more like, yeah, it's hard. I don't know. They do. They probably do stuff like ones for wildlife. Mascara is a trash thing. But yeah, we need another read will like company that handles backpacks to give back, give a kid a backpack and takes the towels to a local animal shelter. That type of thing. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, maybe that's a business idea somebody here can listen to it's like, yes, your donation. Yeah, cuz you can do bulk like, Salvation Army or whatever. But a lot of times, I think it's way more effective. If you give like a mascara wand to a place it's definitely you can't give it you can't give an old mascara one to Salvation Army. So gross. Yeah. That's trash. Yeah, but yeah. But yeah, that's, that's all I have. But I know it was a lot. I was like, really trying to get it in? Well, I think I mean, it's such a I think we had some really important philosophical conversations about Yes. Consumerism in general, which is what this whole season has been about is waste. And yes, humor ism is what creates waste. So like, the logical effects of consumerism, and and yes, and it's just really interesting because so many people in the world think minimalism is the solution. It's like, well, maybe it's more complicated than that. Yeah. No, totally. Well, oh boy. Great. Yeah, but look up ego minimalism because it's, it's pretty interesting really promising. It sounds like it just sounds like a really nice way to live. Yeah. And that that makes me more in some way more inspired than just doing it for myself. Yeah. Personally, I love it. Yeah. I'm so glad because I knew I was like, I can't wait to talk to Ken about that. I mean, it made it made me download a new sound effect. So I love it so much. Awesome. Well, thank you that. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I can't believe I got it in under an hour. Yeah. Well, I was I just realized this is the last episode of the season. Oh my gosh, you're right. So Wow. Yeah, it's a good I mean, although I do think we should do a bonus episode on why our landfills bad because that's something that came up to me over and over. And this is. Yeah. Like, why are they bad? Yes, so might be something we do a bonus episode on. I love it. Yeah. Cuz like when I found out about composting and why it's better. I was like, yeah, yeah. But I mean, we are going to take what a month off. So this will air September 19. Are we going to take two weeks or a month? A month? Yeah. And then. So that'll be what? October 17. We'll be back right before spooky season. We should do something spooky. I was thinking about that. So it's our next season three is supposed to be on personal items. So we might do a Halloween makeup one. Okay, yeah. Well, well, we're Halloween costumes. Maybe? Yeah, that Oh, that would be a good one. Yes. I love it. Okay. So we'll do that. But yeah, so yeah, we're gonna be talking about feminine products. Speaking of being on your period, that's a big one that I'm really interested in reusable. Mostly period panties. So. Yes, and menstrual cups, but I'm really interested in the effects they have on things. But yeah, so we'll be back. Well, maybe we'll, we'll see about this bonus episode. It might be just a 20 minute moral landfill's bed that we put out in the next couple of weeks. But thank you for listening to us for season two. I can't believe we made it through 21 This is episode 24. Not counting many episodes. And that's that is really exciting. I'm, I think I'm really proud of us catch up to me too. Amazing. Yeah. So we'll be back. What? October 17? Yeah. And so go into the holidays, so we can't wait. Thank you. Thank you, thank you enjoy the rest of I guess when this airs will be two days left to summer. And then we're off into the quote unquote, fall though. It's still gonna be 100 degrees here in Austin. We just actually just Today is August 23. here that we're recording this we just broke yesterday. It didn't get up to 100 for the first time in 44 days. Oh, my God, I can't even like my brain can't handle that. It was 100 degrees or more. It was like 108 for a lot of those days. So Wow. That Jesus Christ. Yeah. So hopefully, by the time we hear this again, it's like a nice balmy 75. Yeah. But yeah, I think when a window, yeah, when I go for walks in my car without dying. Right. But this is why we do this, you know. Exactly. Call the corporations that are this is real. ruining our lives. Yeah. Do I mean, it's great that we do individual contributions. And I think we discovered the season that the biggest things you can do are quit buying clothes and quit wasting food. Those are using plastic and using plastic. Those are like the three biggest things that you can you can do. Some put some mindfulness into and yes, help on an individual level. But the rest of the time. It's, we've got to get corporations to quit using plastic. Yes. Producing which is a challenge. Yeah. So thank you for that. We can do it. Yeah. Maybe we'll have a season on local action or something. Oh, I love that. I love the idea of like, what can you actually do like to influence in a bigger way than just? Yes. And you're trying to do that? Yeah. Yeah. More intention. So cool. Thank you for listening to us. Please rate us like us. Download a subscribe. We don't know. Right. It's an email. Follow. Follow? Yeah, review. Yeah. Lots of imperative verbs. All right. We are excited for next season, and have a good month off. Yeah. Thank you.